Double Brood versus Brood and Half

[luckydunny]

Would welcome views and some informative advice as not sure how to plan ahead on choice of brood chamber .

Have read this forum for 6 months plus and always been nervous of how some posts are answered but would really welcome some friendly views, whilst appreciating the answer may well be just my personal choice, (however much more informed I hope).

I have started this year with 3 Colonies each on single National brood box. Two now have supers on, as brood chamber nearly full of brood and some stores.

I have not yet committed to running double brood or brood and a half.

My mentor runs brood and a half and I can see the benefits.

I also appreciate many people would say 14x12 is answer.

I would agree - but have many spare National brood boxes I could use and keep my supers for above QE and Honey, thus keeping equipment costs down and as have time to spare, as retired now. I recognise the issue of having to go through double the frames.

If my supers, already in place are not full at end of flow, possibly intend to use as over winter stores on hives. Would this then commit me to this course of action?

Really not sure as a novice in first year!!

I do have one eye on making sure they all over winter well, I gain more confidence, increase my stocks and get some honey year two!!! Easy - not!!!

Thanks in advance,

 

[milkermel]

I have run a hive on double brood this year. I was concerned that it would be a bit much for me to handle but tbh its been quite straight forward. One thing worth considering though is the weight of the second brood chamber. It is a bit of a lump to lift. The girls have roughly half brood half stores in top box so quite heavy. If you dont want to do the lumping of the weight then would say do 14x12 or brood and half.

 

[oliver90owner]

welcome some friendly views

Don't know you from "****" as the saying goes so you are a stranger, not one of my friends (as yet). However I will address your question and answer with my views. The information is worth exactly as much as you paid or it, btw!

I went the 14 x 12 route best part of a decade ago. Not looked back. I still have some shallows on at times, but only the one big box most of the time (that includes winter!).

Double brood is probably better than one and a half for most bees and beekeepers. It is 'know your bees' for a start and what you want to hump around as seconds. Deep broods are heavy but you have the big advantage of a single frame size in both boxes.

I over-winter on the equivalent of the brood and super, some simply make do easily with a brood only. IofW is likely OK for a single box - ask around - and a double brood over-wintering is a lot of stores.

Deeps are easily converted to 14 x 12. And easily changed back. Frames are pocket money.

I prefer the 14 x 12, not just because it is the one box but it is that much deeper than a 'deep' for the bees to go further upwards, away from the OMF if the weather is very cold in the winter.

There are other things like varroa treatments which might sway your decision, but in the end it is up to you, really.

RAB

 

[MandF]

My ha'peth.

We run both our hives on brood&half, did not want to commit to double deep (size of hive, weight of a deep full of stores, bees storing nectar/honey in the extra brood space when they could be putting it in a honey super etc). Would prefer to run in one national deep but had concerns about running out of brood space and therefore getting swarmy.
So decided to try brood&half - seemed like a good compromise - hopefully enough space to avoid/minimise swarming, the shallow brood being quick/easy to look through, and take off when necessary to go through the deep.
I know there are disadvantages with regards to brood manipulation between the brood&half, but to be honest, I havent wanted or needed to move any brood up or down so thats not been an issue (so far) for us.
I think if I was starting again I would go for the 14x12 as it sounds like it has about the same brood space as brood&half, but as I said, so far have not encountered any of the disadvantages, and aside from 1 week when the nest was at its largest and the queen was in full flow, and we were getting swarm cells with eggs, the size has been perfect.

Oh, the only other thing I have noticed, on one hive, is their tendency to leave a small area in the central super frames, immediately above the QE, empty for brood. But they are capping the honey so not a biggie.

Hope that helps

 

[herefordshirehoney]

I'm quite keen on running a 14x12 but I'm a newbie still learning with the intent of getting bees next year.

If you go for 14x12 and they fill loads of honey do you usually take any excess off them? Also how many supers do you usually need for the one hive on an average session?

Thanks
Chris

 

[MandF]

I havent heard of anyone extracting honey from the brood box, but some may do it. I would have thought any in the brood area is left for them to overwinter on.

Wrt supers, how long is a piece of string?

We have 3 honey supers on both our hives at the moment - and about to extract 1 supers worth for each. I dont think we will be needing any more this year, though we will hopefully have a few more supers worth to extract this year.

That is on a brood&half. In terms of equipment we therefore have 10 supers, 1 as the half on each hive, 3 each on both hives, plus another 2 we will be using to transport the capped honey to extraction premises. Down our association apiary one year I think one hive had 5 or 6, but I think the average maximum was 3 on each (with extractions going on as needed then returning the 'wets' to the hive for them to reuse).

 

[Hivemaker.]

I havent heard of anyone extracting honey from the brood box, but some may do it. I would have thought any in the brood area is left for them to overwinter on.

Yes some do indeed,and feed back syrup, being better for the bees over winter than some kinds of honey,and the honey is worth much more than the feed used to replace it

 

[chickendave]

Yes some do indeed,and feed back syrup, being better for the bees over winter than some kinds of honey,and the honey is worth much more than the feed used to replace it[/QUOTE]



I run my hives on a double brood, if there is a excess in brood frames I have exstracted in the past but know I keep the excess for feeding nuc's and at other times when a frame of stores is needed

 

[Mike a]

Also bear in mind the strain of bee. Some are more than happy with just a single national brood chamber, others will fill out two langstroth jumbo chambers or more in extreme cases.

 

[BKF Admin]

welcome some friendly views

Don't know you from "****" as the saying goes so you are a stranger, not one of my friends (as yet). However I will address your question and answer with my views.

RAB

Rab,read that bit again and think how that may read to any new members who are not used to your writing style

 

[For want of a better word]

Rab,read that bit again and think how that may read to any new members who are not used to your writing style

Everyone knows that Tractor Man is a beekeeping friend!!
Good advice straight from the hip!!!!!!

Me (returning to the OP) I run single brood, double brood and brood and half

Brood and a half is good to allow them to get a lot of brood going, when dropping off a QE can be placed between it and the BB and they will use it for stores once brood has hatched and moved off, then the super full of stores ( no longer being a half brood) can be placed under the BB for winter feed.


I have not invested in 14 x 12 because I have so much ordinary National / WBC kit... but it certainly does the job!

Next year I am going to build a GIANT TBH that can double as a coffin should I drop dead!

 

[fincaazul]

Would welcome views and some informative advice as not sure how to plan ahead on choice of brood chamber .

Have read this forum for 6 months plus and always been nervous of how some posts are answered but would really welcome some friendly views, whilst appreciating the answer may well be just my personal choice, (however much more informed I hope).

I have started this year with 3 Colonies each on single National brood box. Two now have supers on, as brood chamber nearly full of brood and some stores.

I have not yet committed to running double brood or brood and a half.

My mentor runs brood and a half and I can see the benefits.

I also appreciate many people would say 14x12 is answer.

I would agree - but have many spare National brood boxes I could use and keep my supers for above QE and Honey, thus keeping equipment costs down and as have time to spare, as retired now. I recognise the issue of having to go through double the frames.

If my supers, already in place are not full at end of flow, possibly intend to use as over winter stores on hives. Would this then commit me to this course of action?

Really not sure as a novice in first year!!

I do have one eye on making sure they all over winter well, I gain more confidence, increase my stocks and get some honey year two!!! Easy - not!!!

Thanks in advance,

You have got the wrong family! I retired nearly 3 years ago and get loads of jobs given to me as 'you have nothing to do now'. Bees are a good answer to this especially when you give a jar of honey and say it took several hours of your time and considerable expense to produce. Family never offer to pay for it though! Second thought, perhaps you have the right family.

 

[herefordshirehoney]

What would you go for if you had the choice now:

1. Ma****re Cedar National with 14x12 Brood Chamber

2. T****es Bee's on a budget National then later on upgrade to 14x12 (either with eke or swapout?)

For each hive i'll need a minimum of 2 supers..... (i'll aim for 3 though). With 14x12's do you need to do anything special in the winter for insulation?

Bear in mind i have no experiance yet at all, i will probably ask someone at the association what bee's to get and where to get them from in the first year!

Thanks,
Chris

 

[oliver90owner]

1. Ma****re Cedar National with 14x12 Brood Chamber

Anecdotally, choice that would be a non-starter for me.

2. T****es Bee's on a budget National then later on upgrade to 14x12 (either with eke or swapout?)

Deeps are certainly easier for the absolute beginner (and probably the rest of us, too).

Jumbos are heavier, they are more fragile and it is more difficult to get full frames of well-drawn comb. You make your choice.

Can't see any reason for a 'swapout' if changing. A 90mm eke is so easy to screw on.

Regarding three shallows: there may be a deal in waiting for the winter sales. Three 'seconds' supers and a pack of fifty 'seconds' frames might represent a considerably better one than any of the other options in the market at the present time.

With 14x12's do you need to do anything special in the winter for insulation?

No more than with deeps or split broods.

RAB

 

[Steve Dyer]

:Would welcome views and some informative advice as not sure how to plan ahead on choice of brood chamber
I have started this year with 3 Colonies each on single National brood box. Two now have supers on, as brood chamber nearly full of brood and some stores.

I have not yet committed to running double brood or brood and a half.

My mentor runs brood and a half and I can see the benefits.

I also appreciate many people would say 14x12 is answer.

HI, I'm just requoting a bit of your question because the answers seem to have run off the rails slightly

I look at it like this:
A queen, laying flat out at 2,000 eggs per day, will produce about 60,000 bees a month. They emerge after 21 days, so the maximum number of brood cells she can use is 42,000. (yes I know they need honey and pollen storage and "Work in Progress" cells being cleaned)

A Standard brood contains 50,000 cells so theoretically one is enough, but certainly 1 and a half (half = 1 super) is enough. 1 1/2 is also enough to take a colony and 40 lbs of honey/syrup for the winter.

If you have one and a half then if you get any frames of pure honey in the brood chamber you can take them off (you will need to feed to replace it), which means that new starters can actually get a honey crop at the end of their first year even if their colony doesn't build up much, and that's psychologically quite important - "My Honey".

The bottom of the super is where queen cells often are and are easy to spot, and by wickedly placing the super below the deep you can get better drawing out of new deep foundation when necessary.

So I've never really seen the need for or advantage of single very deep deeps or double deeps and their increased weight and the weight of the frames.

I appreciate my maths is a bit simplistic here, but what am I missing?

Steve

 

[OXFORDBEE]

it is more difficult to get full frames of well-drawn comb

RAB,

Could you give more info on this please.

I've used a spirit level to make sure the hives are level and used artificial swarms as the source of bees to populate several 14 x 12 hives this year.

Note: I gave the bees a decent feed the day after artificially swarming them to get them going as the nectar flow this year has been somewhat up and down.

I've used Th0rnes "Premier" foundation and had no problems whatever getting it drawn. I'll try and take some pictures....

 

[oliver90owner]

Deeps are certainly easier for the absolute beginner (and probably the rest of us, too).

Jumbos are heavier, they are more fragile and it is more difficult to get full frames of well-drawn comb. You make your choice.

Oxfordbee,

Perhaps you missed the first sentence? Certainly did when you quoted me!

I have no intention, in the context of the reply, to make any further revelations for you. You are experienced enough to be able to work it out, I would have thought?

I've used a spirit level to make sure the hives are level and used artificial swarms as the source of bees to populate several 14 x 12 hives this year.

Good for you. I am sure there will be beginners out there that would not consider using a spirtit level as the secret of good comb drawing - and how many absolute beginners start with artificial swarms?

 

[Polyanwood]

I have ended up with all sorts of boxes...nationals, 14 x 12, Langstroth and Jumbo Langstroth. Sometimes I run double brood or brood and a half. Sometimes I take the queen excluder out, particuallry if I am running out of kit and the bees urgently need more room.

I think part of the art of beekeeping is making sure the bees and especially the queen has enough but not too much space, and especially not too much space in the Winter.

It has taken me a long time to be able to look inside a box and know if they need more or less room. I think this is one of the most critical skills. I wouldn't worry too much about the boxes.

 

[Moggs]

14 x 12 for me. Changed over from standard national (via brood and half transition in a couple of hive, which was a real pain). Huge surface area for expansion, height for warmth in winter, much easier to manipulate than double or B+1/2 combo's. Very happy that I did.

 

[Swarm]

I appreciate my maths is a bit simplistic here, but what am I missing?

Steve

Nothing IMO Steve. Plenty manage perfectly well with single BS brood boxes. One beek I know runs over 200 all on single BS boxes.