double brood, 14x12 or one and half, experience please!

[milkermel]

I feel with the wbc hive I am looking after for someone, that I need to have more brood space this year.

I am aware of the options, but what do most people find best and why? I am a bit daunted by going double as I am so aware of the weight issue as I had to move the hive at the end of the year! but also dont want to waste time going a bit bigger if I really do need to go double!

I dont want to have to outlay too much and want to keep it as simple as possible for checking. Are there other options that I havent heard of?

 

[For want of a better word]

Just my problem... but on National....... stick on a super????

GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[iball]

I've just put one of my nationals onto double brood with the new bb underneath and another onto 14x12.

On the 14x12, I've put this one underneath will allow them to draw it, make sure her maj is down below then fit QE. once all brood has gone from old box I'll bruise any stores and place above crown board. With any luck that will sort it.

As to which is best, I have no idea!!
Ian

 

[Finman]

.
Take excluder off. Then you know how much it NEED brood space.

 

[oliver90owner]

I see no link here to any supers. it is about brood boxes. if a shallow box is used for brood and a half, it is not a super!

All my bees are on 14 x 12 - cheap to fit an eke under a National deep box to convert. Heavy but not moved around a lot.

The way to go is a personal choice of that particular beekeeper. For me there are so many advantages of the 14 x 12, but I still allow her to lay upstairs if she runs out of room. I feel that is much more important than them swarming early for lack of laying space. Over-wintering needs to be taken into account also, as does any varroa treatments envisaged.

These advantages have to be set against the bigger frames to handle, more crop potentially left in the brood box at harvest, and a host of other oddments which might be important to some, but not others.

I dumped WBCs because of the tiny brood box (well, one reason)

14 x 12 suit me and my style of beekeeping.

Other options? Langstroth, Dadant, Commercial, for just starters.

RAB

 

[For want of a better word]

I see no link here to any supers. it is about brood boxes. if a shallow box is used for brood and a half, it is not a super!

All my bees are on 14 x 12 - cheap to fit an eke under a National deep box to convert. Heavy but not moved around a lot.

The way to go is a personal choice of that particular beekeeper. For me there are so many advantages of the 14 x 12, but I still allow her to lay upstairs if she runs out of room. I feel that is much more important than them swarming early for lack of laying space. Over-wintering needs to be taken into account also, as does any varroa treatments envisaged.

These advantages have to be set against the bigger frames to handle, more crop potentially left in the brood box at harvest, and a host of other oddments which might be important to some, but not others.

I dumped WBCs because of the tiny brood box (well, one reason)

14 x 12 suit me and my style of beekeeping.

Other options? Langstroth, Dadant, Commercial, for just starters.

RAB

I was thinking about the folk who do not have the luxury of loads of hive parts to hand.
Should queenie have moved up to a super for any reason... lack of a QE.. or whatever.. and set up brooding there, should she be allowed to continue to occupy the "super", that has now become a brood box.... or should she be encouraged back to the "deep brood box"

In the particular instance that I gave in a thread started today...
what is the possible problems with a queen laying in a super ( a box normally used as a super)... other than the complexities of handling 2 boxes.??????

I take the point that 14 x 12 would be more manageable

 

[milkermel]

sorry o90o in my referance to super boxes I was just refering to size, never have been great for terms! but glad you got my drift! Personally cant stand the wbc looks great which is what the owner likes, but would also prefer differant set up however I dont have that luxury they will spend something if needed got the girls an omf this year!! old one was grim and not om. So eek underneath?? didnt realise this was how it was done! to save me getting it wrong, depth of brood box plus eek of what depth please?

If it really is that easy to use then might be more straight forward,although it will mean more frames and wax. not worried about extra stores, its theres in the first place.

With the supers (sorry half brood) presume I will have to be careful to get them in line with the box below?

Thanks for your help though folks glad in a way that there is pros for both so means hopefully i wont be able to make a total messs of it!

 

[kazmcc]

I was thinking about the folk who do not have the luxury of loads of hive parts to hand.
Should queenie have moved up to a super for any reason... lack of a QE.. or whatever.. and set up brooding there, should she be allowed to continue to occupy the "super", that has now become a brood box.... or should she be encouraged back to the "deep brood box"

In the particular instance that I gave in a thread started today...
what is the possible problems with a queen laying in a super ( a box normally used as a super)... other than the complexities of handling 2 boxes.??????

I take the point that 14 x 12 would be more manageable

We are on brood and a half, and it's very messy. When lifting the shallow brood box ( the super lol ) it usually takes frames from the deep box with it. Lots of messing about, annoying of bees and dripping. That's what I am told to do right now though. I would prefer to get onto 12x14 if it was up to me.

 

[oliver90owner]

Mel,

I don't think you mentioned a super. Your terminology was not ambiguous at all.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

We are on brood and a half, and it's very messy. When lifting the shallow brood box .

I have used whole my life 2-3 brood system. Brood frames do not attch together. You keep too tight hive or the gap between frames are too narrow or big.

Bees make burr between frames when they hve will be full of honey.

But burr between frames cannot be a reason to use one or too brood boxes. Burr is in the hive however.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Many professional beekeeprs use 1 brood box here, but one question is the time when they put the excluder on. Many put the excluder ´when main yield begins. Up to that queen may lay so much as it can to make foragers to main yield.

Brood and half is not handy at all. It does not allow to change brood frames between two boxes.

Actually most of mongrels are not able to use 2 brood boxes. It must be a good queen which lay one and half.

 

[grizzly]

I feel with the wbc hive I am looking after for someone, that I need to have more brood space this year.

I had this issue last year with a wbc im looking after too, ended up going brood and a half.
Not looking forward to opening it up for the first inspection !!

Just reminds me why i have Langstroth, although running those on double brood made me grow up very quickly!!!

 

[Skyhook]

We are on brood and a half, and it's very messy. When lifting the shallow brood box ( the super lol ) it usually takes frames from the deep box with it. Lots of messing about, annoying of bees and dripping. That's what I am told to do right now though. I would prefer to get onto 12x14 if it was up to me.

I have used whole my life 2-3 brood system. Brood frames do not attch together. You keep too tight hive or the gap between frames are too narrow or big.

Possibly kaz is on bottom space, Finman is on top space?

 

[oliver90owner]

Possibly kaz is on bottom space, Finman is on top space?

That is irrelevant. Bee space is bee space whichever is used.

Bottom bee space is popular because the thin slotted Q/Es can be placed directly on the brood frame top bars. I prefer top bee space and all my hives are thart configuration.

Regards, RAB

 

[For want of a better word]

Possibly kaz is on bottom space, Finman is on top space?

That is irrelevant. Bee space is bee space whichever is used.

Bottom bee space is popular because the thin slotted Q/Es can be placed directly on the brood frame top bars. I prefer top bee space and all my hives are thart configuration.

Regards, RAB

Now my mentor, who now sadly is another star shining in the heavens, always used a QE framed with a 5/16 beespace below directly on top of the bottom bee space brood. with a bottom bee space super above.
This to provide a bee space atop the brood.

Then he had arguments against top bee space boxes.................... made the bees nervous!

Theirs is to have 3 ways of doing is it not?

 

[Skyhook]

Possibly kaz is on bottom space, Finman is on top space?

That is irrelevant. Bee space is bee space whichever is used.

Bottom bee space is popular because the thin slotted Q/Es can be placed directly on the brood frame top bars. I prefer top bee space and all my hives are thart configuration.

Regards, RAB

Not so. There is a little bit at the end of the frame top bar where bottom space breaks down. This is why I'm changing over. Put an empty box on top of a box with frames in, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Finman]

Then he had arguments against top bee space boxes.................... made the bees nervous!

?

Oh boy!

If yoy use even board as inner cover, then box must have gap above frames.
Bees do not know how gap is constructed.

 

[Finman]

If frames are too close, the bees seal under 5 mm cracks together.
If the gap is 20 mm, they make there burr.


Some hives are mad to make burr, They even make horizontal wax bars between frames.

kazmcc has one colony and she cannot stand the burr mesh. wow

 

[oliver90owner]

Not so. There is a little bit at the end of the frame top bar where bottom space breaks down. This is why I'm changing over. Put an empty box on top of a box with frames in, and you'll see what I mean.

Skyhook, please explain as it is not very transparent. What are you changing over, from what, and to what?

Either system has it's pros and cons.

If you are changing to top space, you will find that frames are often slightly displaced (or more) when you set that box onto a surface.

Or is this the 7mm, or so, space that the boxes have at the bottom ends (lug end)?

Must be thick this morning as I am really not sure what you are on about.

RAB

 

[Finman]

Question was about 2 brood, not about the gap between boxes. Nonsence that pros and cons of the gap. You must change the gap if it is wrong..