Does anyone keep native black honey bees?

[Beefriendly]

depends on the definition of weather... min or max temperature, rate of heat loss, hours of sunshine...

The practical experiment is to run Island mated Buckfast colonies side by side with your locally adapted bees in the same apiary and compare like for like.
Which I did for a few years.
Buckfast are so superior in just about every way in my near moorland habitat that I gave up with the locals.
When I asked them about their preferred min max temperatures and hours of sunshine they said Bzzzzzz off.

If you look historically in the UK we appear to have only recently re-discovered insulation. Sort of re-inventing the wheel. The original tended "hives" were tree nests, followed by log gums (chopping the nest out of the tree) although this was never very strong in the UK..Which tended more towards straw skeps plastered and insulated with a thick layer of mud and cow dung. Woodbury in the late 1800 early 1900's introduced one of the first double walled hives where the inside gap was filled with cork chippings for insulation during the winter and removed in the spring...followed closely by the similar WBC which was lighter and cheaper to produce....but with time (possibly due to 2 world wars) many forgot to insulate the gap.

Nothing new in beekeeping. And the bees have survived despite the less than ideal conditions many colonies have (and are) kept in.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Agreed, my point was more that the "thriving" description should have been qualified.

If is was, then perhaps it would have been sensible to have said so May I suggest that as it is always best to see something for oneself, you do as I did .....go and have a look and make up your own mind!.

 

[B+.]

The practical experiment is to run Island mated Buckfast colonies side by side with your locally adapted bees in the same apiary and compare like for like.
Which I did for a few years.
Buckfast are so superior in just about every way in my near moorland habitat that I gave up with the locals.
When I asked them about their preferred min max temperatures and hours of sunshine they said Bzzzzzz off.

Years ago, I ran an experiment with 5 Buckfast, 5 Neuwerk mated carnica and 5 Torfhaus mated carnica side-by-side in the same apiary. All colonies were allowed to fill double Langstroth brood chambers, then fill as many Langstroth deeps with honey as supers as they could.
The Buckfast group were inconsistent. 1 colony produced very well with 4 full boxes and was about to go into its 5th when I had to reduce the stack as it was getting dangerously tall. It swarmed a couple of weeks later. The others produced either 2 or 3 deeps. This high producing colony is what Prof Ruttner called "blinden" (a "sparkler" which can occur in any cross but is difficult to reproduce). The others produced 2-3 boxes.
The Torfhaus group consistently produced 2-3 boxes but were variable in their behavior. 1 colony was unacceptable by my standards and I marked it as a "2".
The Neuwerk group were consistent in both behavior and output, producing 3 boxes each. Things have moved on a bit since those days and my testing is much more involved. I still test CT-Celle queens mated on Neuwerk but I wouldn't touch so-called "Buckfasts" with a barge-pole now. You just have no way of knowing what you will get.

With Buckfasts, you are as likely to get an "average" queen as you are a "sparkler". You can't compare selected stock with unselected stock fairly. You have to compare like with like

 

[SDM]

The practical experiment is to run Island mated Buckfast colonies side by side with your locally adapted bees in the same apiary and compare like for like.
Which I did for a few years.
Buckfast are so superior in just about every way in my near moorland habitat that I gave up with the locals.

Same here, I used to chase swarms in the hope of finding something special. Anglesey has some pretty high percentage Amm so I'm told.ive certainly seen a good few basically pure black bees about. Even the locals who promote the local beasts don't question the fact that they're more than a little prickly.
For me the clincher is that they are simply poor producers when compared to any of the better Buckfast.
I still collect swarms, but requeen asap.

 

[For want of a better word]

Nothing new in beekeeping. And the bees have survived despite the less than ideal conditions many colonies have (and are) kept in.

Last season under pretty much same conditions my Amm colonies produced 100% more honey than my New Zealand Italians

It was a terrible season for bees... even our local strawberry growers were having problems with their imported bumble bee pollinators.

As B+ said... it would need to be a blind experiment... but I think the environmental conditions or even perhaps the beekeepers capabilities that would make a difference.

I thought that the so called Buckfast as from Buckfast DN was a hybrid of Ligurian and Carniolian?

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Last season under pretty much same conditions my Amm colonies produced 100% more honey than my New Zealand Italians

It was a terrible season for bees... even our local strawberry growers were having problems with their imported bumble bee pollinators.

As B+ said... it would need to be a blind experiment... but I think the environmental conditions or even perhaps the beekeepers capabilities that would make a difference.

I thought that the so called Buckfast as from Buckfast DN was a hybrid of Ligurian and Carniolian?

Yeghes da

The early part of the season was terrible (cold & wet) but it improved.My highest producing colony produced 132.15 Kg. (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744) ... I thought it was ironic ...yesterday was the Beds BKA agm and they were talking about a maximum yield of 100 lbs...mine was almost 3 times that! That is what happens when you don't do fair comparisons.

 

[SDM]

I thought that the so called Buckfast as from Buckfast DN was a hybrid of Ligurian and Carniolian?

Yeghes da

Brandstrups site says they're direct descendants of bro Adams Exmoor stock , I've always been told that's 50ish% Amm, 30ish% ligustica plus others.
I certainly can't swear to that though.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Considering Buckfast are a little over 50% Amm ie. A little more British than the average British mongrel.

For many years Brother Adam used French Amm in his Buckfast breeding, usually French Amm breeder queens he acquired from Alec Gale.

 

[SDM]

For many years Brother Adam used French Amm in his Buckfast breeding, usually French Amm breeder queens he acquired from Alec Gale.

Isn't that about as British as most Amm get ?

 

[Into the lions den]

Last season under pretty much same conditions my Amm colonies produced 100% more honey than my New Zealand Italians

Decent performance, but really, in the wild west, and with last year's early season weather, I can hardly think of a better way to produce a result more skewed to proving Amm are best (due credit of course, as at least with Cornish Amm there is SOME true experimental data to backup their worth).

Yellow Italians in most of north and west Britain (or Ireland) would have had an awful year last year, but as it is one of the least likely bees to succeed (there are worse) it proves only exactly what it says on the tin. Yellow Italian style stock was no good in Cornwall in 2016.

( I do keep some Amm lines so, despite appearances, not totally against them...we need the toughness in our mix.)

 

[Finman]

.
We have in Finland a few AMM keepers, but they are very earger to explain how good bee it is.
NZ Italians are not able to live in Finland.

 

[Stiffy]

Decent performance, but really, in the wild west, and with last year's early season weather, I can hardly think of a better way to produce a result more skewed to proving Amm are best (due credit of course, as at least with Cornish Amm there is SOME true experimental data to backup their worth).

Yellow Italians in most of north and west Britain (or Ireland) would have had an awful year last year, but as it is one of the least likely bees to succeed (there are worse) it proves only exactly what it says on the tin. Yellow Italian style stock was no good in Cornwall in 2016.

( I do keep some Amm lines so, despite appearances, not totally against them...we need the toughness in our mix.)

We had our best year ever, the Buckfast easily outperformed the black bees on the same sites. Just goes to show the NZ Italians don't do well when the weather is variable.
S

 

[For want of a better word]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hivemaker. View Post
For many years Brother Adam used French Amm in his Buckfast breeding, usually French Amm breeder queens he acquired from Alec Gale.***

Isn't that about as British as most Amm get ?

Explain why the DNA of the Amm collected from extant colonies is so far away ( in the statistical analyses) from the samples assayed in France and its offshore islands of Finnisterre?

*** I find it incredible that after possibly 60 generations of breeding and crossing that the original genetic mix manufactured by BA is robust enough to be the same.


Why are some so called beekeepers so anti Amm / Carniolian / Ligurian/ anything else???

Myttin da

***

 

[Finman]

[I

Why are some so called beekeepers so anti Amm
***

I have 25 years experience about AMM. Black mongrel bees were everywher. I wonder how you can breed them in open mating.

Native black bee.... Artificial insemination or closed mating station? How it can be "native since Ice Ace"?

Some wild forms of Carniolan are even worse.... I have met them several.

 

[Beefriendly]

The others produced either 2 or 3 deeps. This high producing colony is what Prof Ruttner called "blinden" (a "sparkler" which can occur in any cross but is difficult to reproduce). The others produced 2-3 boxes.
The Torfhaus group consistently produced 2-3 boxes but were variable in their behavior. 1 colony was unacceptable by my standards and I marked it as a "2".
The Neuwerk group were consistent in both behavior and output, producing 3 boxes each.

Interesting, despite your dislike of the Buckfast your results show they produced as much or more than your other crosses.

 

[SDM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hivemaker. View Post
For many years Brother Adam used French Amm in his Buckfast breeding, usually French Amm breeder queens he acquired from Alec Gale.***

Isn't that about as British as most Amm get ?

Explain why the DNA of the Amm collected from extant colonies is so far away ( in the statistical analyses) from the samples assayed in France and its offshore islands of Finnisterre?

*** I find it incredible that after possibly 60 generations of breeding and crossing that the original genetic mix manufactured by BA is robust enough to be the same.


Why are some so called beekeepers so anti Amm / Carniolian / Ligurian/ anything else???

Myttin da

***

Because they were probably from Germany instead ?
But your statement isn't really accurate is it ? Granted there are markers that identify a specific UK sub species, but I'm unaware of any that ONLY carry those UK markers.
I'm certainly not anti Amm, I've not kept any purer than the locals, I'd find beekeeping less fun and productive if I had to keep them is all I can say. I'd be keen to try a couple of B+'s Carnica for sure. I consider Buckfast "sparklers" to be just that, an exception, that doesn't detract from a pretty impressive average in my limited experience. So in short I'm not anti anything and will always be pleased to find a better bee.
I imagine this is true of most Beekeepers and that it is in fact only Amm advocates that are anti everything else.

 

[mbc]

Isn't that about as British as most Amm get ?

No

 

[Beefriendly]

Why are some so called beekeepers so anti Amm / Carniolian / Ligurian/ anything else???

Given your constant slating of your imported Italian bees, you should be in a good position to answer that yourself.

From my part there is no anti- any bee, just when idiots start promoting one type over another. Particularly when that bee is not a particularly productive honey producer.

You say your Cornish Amm;s brought in 2x your Italian imports and you mentioned in an earlier post that your Amm's brought in 20kg.....That is not a lot of honey.
My Amm's brought in more than that last year. And I don't rate them as honey producers.

 

[SDM]

No

I can only assume you chose to ignore the "most" in my comments. Since it would be inconceivable to me that the majority of relatively pure Amm in the UK aren't heavily influenced by restocking.
Is there such a thing as a 90% pure Amm that doesn't carry continental genetics ?

 

[mbc]

I can only assume you chose to ignore the "most" in my comments. Since it would be inconceivable to me that the majority of relatively pure Amm in the UK aren't heavily influenced by restocking.
Is there such a thing as a 90% pure Amm that doesn't carry continental genetics ?

Your post posed a question to which the answer was was "no".
Inconceivable to you or not, the areas which retain relatively pure Amm do so because they haven't been particularly heavily influenced by restocking, imagine that!