DIY plastic drawn-out foundation

[ugcheleuce]

Bees "draw out" cells wrt the central spine provided by the foundation. Meaning "build outwards".

Yes, I understand that the English phrase "draw out" can mean to simply build on something and not literally draw out, but as far as I understand it bees do actually "draw out" the wax from the foundation. Obviously they supplement it with their own wax but a lot of wax in the sheet ends in in the cell walls.

I've read about experiments with coloured comb (which is often used for candle making) in which you can see just how much of the foundation is used by the bees (because the bees' own wax is not coloured).

I would expect the amount of wax from the foundation used by the bees to also depend on whether the foundation was rolled or poured.

It provides a plumb regular foundation (as the name suggests) for cells to be added to.

This is off-topic, but: c'mon, foundation is only called "foundation" in English. In Dutch, for example, it is called "artificial comb"... which semantically speaking is not entirely accurate either (we don't have separate words for drawn out comb and non-drawn out comb in Dutch, so both foundation and comb is called "comb" in Dutch).

The queen is called "queen" in English but she is not a queen, and it would be silly (I'm sure you'll agree) to say that the word we use for her is indicative of her function. For what it's worth, in Dutch she is called the "mother".

Although you do not NEED to pre-wax plastic foundation, it gives the bees a helping hand.

That certainly is true, but I wonder how I would coat the straws with a sufficiently thin layer of wax. I know very little about wax, I'm afraid. As far as I know, getting wax thin enough means heating it, and that would melt the straws as soon as you dip it in the wax. Do you know of other ways to make liquid wax much thinner?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Plastic honeycombs are used in the manufacture of laminated structures.

In my previous country of residence, such sheets were cheap and easy to buy, but in the country where I currently live it is nearly impossible to get, and then always at jaw dropping prices.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Am I right to say that if the bees are busy storing food and they run out of space, and they don't have sufficient raw materials to build brand new comb (e.g. the right kind of flow), then they simply stop storing food?"

What do you think bees make comb out of? Answer - nectar (ie food). They use some of the surplus to build new comb to make space for the remainder of the surplus.

Sure, but surely they don't keep on building comb like mad[wo]men until they run out of surplus. I'm sure they strike some sort of balance. And isn't it true that as winter approaches, the bees will tip the balance towards building less comb instead of maintaining less surplus?

 

[pargyle]

I understand what you are saying but I still don't get why you feel you need to go to the trouble of piling drinking straws together, cutting them up and trying to find a way of coating them in wax to (perhaps) make them more acceptable to the bees.

Surely ... either go down the 'normal' wax foundation route or let them build their own from a starter strip ... which could be an inch of wax foundation or a one of the wooden starters of which there are many variations ... they will even build comb out from a small bead of wax on the underside of the top bar,

I just don't know what your motivation for this 'novel' idea of comb made from cut up drinking straws is. DrS has hit the nail on the head ....

 

[drstitson]

Bees are constrained by resources and space. they obviously stop when no room bar beepspace left.

But look at your average super - comb is only drawn as needed initially. you don't get broad fields of pristine empty comb but rather cells of varying depth, filled to varying degrees.

obviously what bees do immediately after swarming (if well fed) is another matter.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I just don't know what your motivation for this 'novel' idea of comb made from cut up drinking straws is.

Oh, none really. A fellow beekeeper ran out of space in his hive this week and wanted to borrow drawn-out comb, but I didn't have any, so I just got to thinking a bit out of the box. I don't think I'll test the idea in the near future, though.

 

[Dishmop]

Not quite with the question but
They will build comb on floor mesh if you put it in frame.

Bees actually have a bit of trouble walking about on new wax foundation, so plastic might be even worse for them if no wax on it.

 

[pargyle]

Oh, none really. A fellow beekeeper ran out of space in his hive this week and wanted to borrow drawn-out comb, but I didn't have any, so I just got to thinking a bit out of the box. I don't think I'll test the idea in the near future, though.

Ahhh ... I see now - you were seeking a 'comb substitute' rather than a foundation for them to build on.

If this is the case I'm not sure that the bees would particularly like round holes to put their honey etc. in - They are fussy builders who have very strong ideas about size and shape etc. If whatever you provide doesn't conform to something they want to use ... they usually modify it to meet their own requirements !!

Unlike a lot of other insects who are happy to use pre-existing holes or other creatures nests ... honey bees are a bit more particular.

They probably would use a vertical raft of drinking straws as a basis for their building activity ... but I would bet that the frames ended up looking like 'normal' drawn out comb in the end, burying any vestige of the straws underneath a fat wadge of wax - but the hive committee may take a while to decide what and how they are going to build on it ... give them something a bit easier to consider !

 

[ugcheleuce]

Ahhh ... I see now - you were seeking a 'comb substitute' rather than a foundation for them to build on.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

If this is the case I'm not sure that the bees would particularly like round holes to put their honey etc. in...

The odd thing is that when I look at drawn-out comb, the inside dimensions of the "6-sided" cells are mostly not 6-sided at all, but round. I know we are taught that bees build 6-sided cells, and that will be my answer in the exam, but my bees don't build 'em like in the pictures. They must be schizophrenic.

 

[drstitson]

bees do build them all round. it's only the fluid behaviour of wax at raised temperature that pulls the cells into shape.

think soap bubbles - 6 round ones join together to produce a central cube.

 

[Tom Bick]

great idea - buy some invert sugar, add some pollen and some E150 for colour.
no-one will be any the wiser.
no need for hive costs, wasting time with inspections.

!

Thats it the OP is thinking that the bees need help building something that they are perfectly equipped to do why not then remove the need to fly.

Personally in my experience the bees will build comb faster than draw out foundation. Obviously they will only do both if they have good reason to do so.

My challenge to the OP next year go and trust the bees give them just wired frames with some form of starter and let the bees show you what they can do.

 

[Little John]

DulwichGnome : If you do this remember the cells need to have a 15 degree incline ...

That is a good point that I did not think about.

I think you'll find it would be even more complex than that.

The ends of the straws - each one of which will need to be cut very precisely at 75 degrees - will then need to butt up hard against a central web, or spine. That joint will need to be 100% watertight (or rather, nectar-tight and/or air-tight) - with no hint of a gap. Even just achieving this would be very difficult. And then - what glue would you use for attaching them ?

Even if it could be done (and I have some serious doubts about that), I'm wondering how long it would take to fabricate a comb from several thousand pieces of drinking straw - by hand - ensuring that every individual straw's joint to the central web is precisely made and watertight ?

I would say that if you want to make any kind of artificial comb, then you'd do much better by starting-off with a mould, and casting them - somehow.

Even better - let the masters of wax engineering do it for you - after all, they've had one or two years practice at doing it - and have pretty-well mastered the art.

LJ

 

[ugcheleuce]

The ends of the straws - each one of which will need to be cut very precisely at 75 degrees...

Beekeeper wisdom hereabouts is that bees are quite forgiving when it comes to things like angles. Natural comb is not "precisely" at 75 degrees, and don't forget that bees are perfectly happy to accept e.g. comb that was rotated by 90 degrees.

...will then need to butt up hard against a central web, or spine. That joint will need to be 100% watertight (or rather, nectar-tight and/or air-tight) - with no hint of a gap.

My assumption was that the bees would not use the fake comb as-is, but would coat it on the inside with a layer of wax anyway. That should take care of gaps, too. After all, when bees re-use naturally built comb that are damaged, they don't shun it but fix it.

And then - what glue would you use for attaching them?

Well, I suppose a generous layer of wood-based liquid glue should do the trick. In nature the bees would encounter that stuff inside tree hollows, wouldn't they?

 

[Little John]

Beekeeper wisdom hereabouts is that bees are quite forgiving when it comes to things like angles. Natural comb is not "precisely" at 75 degrees, and don't forget that bees are perfectly happy to accept e.g. comb that was rotated by 90 degrees.

I can see I wasn't clear on that point. It isn't the angle itself which is important, for as you say, comb can be rotated and the bees will still use it.

But if one straw is cut at 75 degrees, and another 74, and yet another at 76, then when you assemble the comb, two of these straws will have gaps between their end surfaces and the comb's spine.

So - the angle need not be exactly 75 degrees - but whatever angle is chosen, the angle of the cut will need to be made very precisely, and the cut straws then fitted without any rotation, in order to avoid significant number of gaps occuring - otherwise you will be relying on the bees' repairing the comb which, to my mind, kind of negates the basic idea.


With regard to glue - I had assumed you were going to use plastic straws (?) - the gluing of which will require a solvent-based synthetic adhesive.

If you were to use wax-coated paper straws, then I can advise you in advance that the bees will chew those to pieces.

LJ

 

[ugcheleuce]

Whatever angle is chosen, the angle of the cut will need to be made very precisely, and the cut straws then fitted without any rotation, in order to avoid significant number of gaps occuring...

That is true. I can now see in my mind's eye how the short pieces of straw may be reluctant to just "fall into place" when placed against the foundation's centre. The solution is that the straws should really be attached to each other before they are mounted... either by melting them together during the cutting process (I imagined using a hot wire), or beforehand. Yes, come to think of it, it would actually make things a lot simpler if the straws are glued together before cutting. Sounds like a job for sticky hands!

With regard to glue - I had assumed you were going to use plastic straws (?) - the gluing of which will require a solvent-based synthetic adhesive.

Well, I have no idea, to be frank. I will have to find out what kind of glue would be safe for use with plastic but also safe for use with bees. Perhaps I can even simply press the plastic tubes against a patternless sheet of wax foundation.

If you were to use wax-coated paper straws, then I can advise you in advance that the bees will chew those to pieces.

Thanks for the warning, but I did not even consider using paper straws for that exact reason. The rule with unnatural stuff in the hive seems to be: if a bee can eat it, then she will.

 

[Little John]

The solution is that the straws should really be attached to each other before they are mounted... either by melting them together during the cutting process (I imagined using a hot wire), or beforehand. Yes, come to think of it, it would actually make things a lot simpler if the straws are glued together before cutting.

Well - although I think your idea is just a little bit crazy (but don't worry - people said that about the Wright Brothers, too ) - glueing the straws together before cutting them is inspired thinking - nice one !

That is an excellent idea. So - do you think you may actually have a go at doing this ?

LJ

Ah - just had a thought - if you were to gently crush the straws together, you might even approach the hexagonal shape of a natural cell ... maybe.

 

[ugcheleuce]

So - do you think you may actually have a go at doing this?

I didn't initially think I would, but perhaps next year when the flow is in full swing, I'll do a bit of an experiment with a frame or two with straws of different sizes, just to see what would happen.

Hypothetically speaking, if someone like me was a neighbouring beekeeper and asked you if you'd be interested in hanging one such frame in one of your hives, would you consider it, or would you rather not risk it (after all, who knows who might get stuck in the straws...)?

If you were to gently crush the straws together, you might even approach the hexagonal shape of a natural cell...

I suspect the straws would return to their original shape almost immediately after you let go of them -- they may be made from very thin plastic but they are resilient.

 

[pargyle]

Thats it the OP is thinking that the bees need help building something that they are perfectly equipped to do ......

Personally in my experience the bees will build comb faster than draw out foundation. Obviously they will only do both if they have good reason to do so.

My challenge to the OP next year go and trust the bees give them just wired frames with some form of starter and let the bees show you what they can do.

That's a good idea ... like this one - sometimes I wonder whether they even need frames ! Great construction experts ...

 

[Little John]

I suspect the straws would return to their original shape almost immediately after you let go of them -- they may be made from very thin plastic but they are resilient.

Sure - but I wasn't thinking of letting go of them - but rather apply the glue, then compress them inside a frame - inside which they'd stay permanently ...

Hypothetically speaking, if someone like me was a neighbouring beekeeper and asked you if you'd be interested in hanging one such frame in one of your hives, would you consider it, or would you rather not risk it (after all, who knows who might get stuck in the straws...)?

Well, I'm probably not the right person to ask - as I don't even use wax foundation anymore, but have gone over to a mix of Top Bars, open (i.e. no bottom bars) foundationless frames, and Delon wire frames - depending on which hive they're in. My basic beekeeping philosophy is to allow the bees to build comb in their own way as far as possible - so I simply couldn't imagine using plastic combs of any kind.

If I was 'plastic minded', so to speak, then I'd probably give it a go - but keep a close eye on it, just to be on the safe side. I think bees are pretty smart, and will only use something which they consider to be 'right'.

As an experiment, it might be worth making a few square inches, and inserting it in the middle of a comb, just to see what their reaction is.

LJ

 

[Tom Bick]

That's a good idea ... like this one - sometimes I wonder whether they even need frames ! Great construction experts ...

Yes they dont need frames and without frames or something to keep them straight the bees can get very artistic in their comb building.

Obviously the frame is an aid to the beekeeper and the same for foundation no great help to the bees only the beekeeper.