Direction of comb Building

[The Poot in Somerset]

I've read that bees generally build up from bottom to top through the Spring / Summer, but Wally Shaw reckons the opposite. What have you guys and gals experienced - is there a definitive answer? The brood and a half management technique only holds any benefit if top down occurs?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They work from the top downwards - never seen them do it any other way.
Thy turning your book around

 

[madasafish]

Heat rises.
Brood rearing requires higher temperatures than average ambient .
If you examine brood frames in Spring, the majority of brood is on the upper half of the frame and very little or none at the bottom.

Change your choice of authors. If they can't get the simple things right....

 

[drex]

Simple, take out a new empty frame or empty top bar they are worjpking on, you will always see that they start at the top, often in different places, but as ERic used to say to Ernie - you can't see the join

 

[Poly Hive]

Always from the top and please forget any thoughts of brood and a half and save yourself some considerable hassle. KISS

PH

 

[Kenson]

If I sit and think about it, the way Bees build comb is they "Festoon" (grab each others legs to form a sort of "hanging curtain"). So it will be easier for all of them if they start from the top, also if they get "interrupted" and they started from the bottom all their work would fall on the floor.

 

[beeno]

Hi Kenson,
Setting Wally Shaw’s quote within the right context.
“When bees are first installed in a movable frame hive they usually have to build combs from the bottom up instead of from the top down.”

We are talking boxes here and beekeeper intervention. The beekeeper puts supers on top to force bees to draw comb and move surplus stores up as they don’t like empty space above them.

 

[DanBee]

There's confusion over frames and boxes here; Wally's quote above wasn't clear and doesn't mention how many boxes nor where a queen excluder might be placed.

Boxes: start drawing in the box above the brood nest; multiple boxes of foundation added = draw in the lower box first. Bottom up.

Frames: start drawing from the underside of the topbar, downwards. Top down.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's confusion over frames and boxes here; Wally's quote above wasn't clear and doesn't mention how many boxes nor where a queen excluder might be placed.

a quote taken completely out of context to prove an erroneous point.

 

[Kenson]

I think Wally (and perhaps you) are referring to "Box Order", I had assumed "on the frame". I have included a couple of pictures of what mine do.

Yes. I really am that lazy. I just let them do what they want

If it's a question of "If we gave them a 4 box hive to populate which frames (which box) will they use first", I think, mostly, they will go "Nearest the entrance" i.e. I would think if the entrance is a "conventional" bottom entrance, then they will use the bottom box. I have noted some people (especially in the USA) prefer "Top only" entrances, in which case I would expect them to use the Top box first. Basically as close to the entrance as does not lose excessive heat.

They're not stupid them bees.

I might be a bit thick though

K

 

[user 6228]

... I think, mostly, they will go "Nearest the entrance" i.e. I would think if the entrance is a "conventional" bottom entrance, then they will use the bottom box. I have noted some people (especially in the USA) prefer "Top only" entrances, in which case I would expect them to use the Top box first. Basically as close to the entrance as does not lose excessive heat.
....

K

? really

 

[Kenson]

Yes. I think that. Given a 4 stack of "brood chambers", I think they would use the top one for a top entrance, not descend all the way to the cooler part of the hive. BUT Wally Shaw has said (apparently) that they will build from the bottom up. But most of our beehives have "bottom" entrances and I have assumed that Wally is talking about "most hives", under which circumstance they appear to work from the bottom up (because that is the nearest entrance?).

I will, when I get the opportunity try the experiments, but it will be only a few hives, so would be statistically vulnerable to say the least. But it is what I Think they will do.

Trouble is with bees, they do what they want and there are always so many variables that something like this needs thousands or millions of repetitions to gain validity.

I have evidence for what they do "on a frame", they build top => down. To me that is an established fact. I'm in the "Beginners" section here, and need to learn more, but also to learn to be able to think of what the bees will probably do under a given set of circumstances.

K

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Yes. I think that. Given a 4 stack of "brood chambers", I think they would use the top one for a top entrance, not descend all the way to the cooler part of the hive. BUT Wally Shaw has said (apparently) that they will build from the bottom up. But most of our beehives have "bottom" entrances and I have assumed that Wally is talking about "most hives", under which circumstance they appear to work from the bottom up (because that is the nearest entrance?).

I will, when I get the opportunity try the experiments, but it will be only a few hives, so would be statistically vulnerable to say the least. But it is what I Think they will do.

Trouble is with bees, they do what they want and there are always so many variables that something like this needs thousands or millions of repetitions to gain validity.

I have evidence for what they do "on a frame", they build top => down. To me that is an established fact. I'm in the "Beginners" section here, and need to learn more, but also to learn to be able to think of what the bees will probably do under a given set of circumstances.

K

Why would you face your coĺony with a stack of empty brood chambers? Given your oft repeated use of the word think it appears you don't really know.
I hope beginners reading this thread aren't minded to depart from the paths of righteousness. It's a hard enough job teaching the basics without wandering off into debates about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why would you face your coĺony with a stack of empty brood chambers? Given your oft repeated use of the word think it appears you don't really know.
I hope beginners reading this thread aren't minded to depart from the paths of righteousness. It's a hard enough job teaching the basics without wandering off into debates about how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.

If it's a question of "If we gave them a 4 box hive to populate which frames (which box) will they use first", I think, mostly, they will go "Nearest the entrance"

Absolute rubbish - given a stack of boxes with no QE they will start at the top and work down, regardless of where the entrance is, building comb below the brood nest then storing honey above, moving down as they need more space (as they would in a natural cavity)

People here are taking a quote from Wally and twisting it around to suit some erroneous theory.
In a conventional man made hive with only a brood box, they will start making comb from the top bar down, brood the same way and, when stores are available, store from the top down.
But once we add a queen excluder then supers with foundation things go topsy turvy - bees have to draw comb above the brood nest and store honey in it then another empty super is added on top so the bees have to go UP(the clue is in the word) to draw more comb not down, always comb building above the brood nest not below as is natural but in each box, from the top bar down.
If I remember, I'll bring it up with him in the spring convention - if I can be bothered to waste his time with such a futile argument.

 

[Poly Hive]

When I was running a small ob hive which had one brood comb and one super comb they were at one point getting over crowded and the brood comb was about to hatch a lot of bees. So....

I removed the sealed brood and gave a frame with a sheet of foundation.

Next morning they were busy working the foundation from the TOP as my bees in my experience always do. Just for info in the space of 18 hours they had worked enough (no feeding) to enable the queen to lay up the first four rows of cells.

That may act as a tip for the beginners as to how fast they can move.

PH

 

[DanBee]

Yes. I think that. Given a 4 stack of "brood chambers", I think they would use the top one for a top entrance, not descend all the way to the cooler part of the hive. BUT Wally Shaw has said (apparently) that they will build from the bottom up. But most of our beehives have "bottom" entrances and I have assumed that Wally is talking about "most hives", under which circumstance they appear to work from the bottom up (because that is the nearest entrance?).

I will, when I get the opportunity try the experiments, but it will be only a few hives, so would be statistically vulnerable to say the least. But it is what I Think they will do.

Trouble is with bees, they do what they want and there are always so many variables that something like this needs thousands or millions of repetitions to gain validity.

I have evidence for what they do "on a frame", they build top => down. To me that is an established fact. I'm in the "Beginners" section here, and need to learn more, but also to learn to be able to think of what the bees will probably do under a given set of circumstances.

K

Two words: queen excluder.

 

[DanBee]

But once we add a queen excluder then supers with foundation things go topsy turvy - bees have to draw comb above the brood nest and store honey in it then another empty super is added on top so the bees have to go UP(the clue is in the word) to draw more comb not down, always comb building above the brood nest not below as is natural but in each box, from the top bar down.

 

[birdsandbees]

plenty of sensible replies already but just to add my two pence worth, all cut outs I have done reveal the truth as stated, Bees build top down, as the comb grows stores are above and brood moves down below it.

box hives just effectively create a gap above which they then fill with honey as would be found in natural colonies

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Thank you all for your inputs - I was thinking boxes rather than frames and asked as I want to get away from brood and a half and currently have the shallows on top. So at first inspection planned for next week, I can expect most brood in the shallow. So more advice please - I need to find the queen, ensure she's in the brood box, then I can add a queen excluder between the two boxes and allow the larvae to hatch from the shallow. Then The shallow can become a normal super for storage? I can add a second brood box if the colony develops well and Bob becomes my uncle? I have two colonies in this situation, both seem pretty strong at present. Thanks for your help.