Demaree. I knew it was too good to be true

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why not just stick her in a queen cage and be done with then? that will stop her swarming.

 

[YorkshireBees]

I demaree'd my HM buckfast hive 19 days ago. Queenie in bottom with one frame brood. QE three supers - QE (as part of a snelgrove board) and all the brood in the top box. (I also pinched a frame of brood and food to make a nuc)

I went back after 4 days to check for the top box making queen cells - they did make 3 which I removed. As Wally Shaw predicts they are backfilling the cells as they emerge so I planned on extracting the honey from these top frames.

...

In my experience (just a few years using demaree) I do NOT transfer any brood to the lower box.
The idea is that the Queen and flying bees feel that they have swarmed already. How many swarms arrive at a new location with brood?

I had the same experience the 1st year that I tried it and since them I isolate the Queen on the frame she is on in a spare poly nuc whilst I swap the lower box for a box of drawn comb + some frame of foundation then after shaking a couple of frames of bees from the original BB into the new BB I gently run the queen off the frame she is on into the lower box. That way there is absolutely no brood present.

I was also surprised the first year that the top box was back filled so fast with nectar.

As has been pointed out it is no problem to then swap these frames for capped brood in the lower box as they will move the nectar to make laying room as long as they have enough space in the supers.

Alternatively, if you have the kit and storage space, let them cap the frames in the top box and store them for winter feed.

 

[Cussword]

Your Ubermensch attitude is getting tiring on the forum.

You can speak for the whole forum???


.

 

[beeno]

Why not just stick her in a queen cage and be done with then? that will stop her swarming.

I consider the welfare of the drones redundant on this occasion. If you think it through there will be hardly any drones in an AS, you are keeping them out not in. I will not comment on the above statement as I consider newbies to be of higher intelligence.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hopefully - then they'll know not to listen to your drivel.

How to deal with a colony in swarm mode

A) Pagden - needs loads of kit and a bit of room
B) Demaree - less kit,,less room bit more care and thinking but heavy lifting at times
C) Snelgrove - fiddly with all that flipping entrances etc.
D) Wally Shaw - less faffing needs either as much kit as a Pagden or a Demarree but a very good success rate
E) Queen away split - can work but puts the main colony at a disadvantage waiting for the new queen to mate.
all can be helped along by bleeding flying bees away from the queen.
All of the above means work, vigilance and thinking - can't be a*sed with all that?
I Know!
The Beeno (also known as the ostrich) - slam a QX across the entrance, stop the queen from leaving and cope with dead drones and a frustrated colony, stick your head in the sand and hope the problem will go away

Perfick

 

[Fritillary]

Not surprising WS hasn't named his version "The Wally" I suppose.

 

[Obee1]

Hopefully - then they'll know not to listen to your drivel.

How to deal with a colony in swarm mode

A) Pagden - needs loads of kit and a bit of room
B) Demaree - less kit,,less room bit more care and thinking but heavy lifting at times
C) Snelgrove - fiddly with all that flipping entrances etc.
D) Wally Shaw - less faffing needs either as much kit as a Pagden or a Demarree but a very good success rate
E) Queen away split - can work but puts the main colony at a disadvantage waiting for the new queen to mate.
all can be helped along by bleeding flying bees away from the queen.
All of the above means work, vigilance and thinking - can't be a*sed with all that?
I Know!
The Beeno (also known as the ostrich) - slam a QX across the entrance, stop the queen from leaving and cope with dead drones and a frustrated colony, stick your head in the sand and hope the problem will go away

Perfick

You say all can be helped by bleeding the flyers away from the queen - but the a/s I did put the flyers in with the queen. Bleed them off and she's left bereft of bees.

Re the QE debate - as I actually did an a/s - which means the queen is with flyers and one frame of open brood (in my case not drone brood) then why is it such a bad idea to put a QE across the entrance for a few days whilst she fattens up. There are practically no drones to upset - and bees having to pass through a QE is the norm for many colonies. I can't see what the problem is in this instance. Am I missing something? Belt and braces sounds quite a good plan - she is my fave queen - though admittedly she is heading towards being past her 'best before date' and is destined to go live in a retirement nuc rather than heading my garden hive.

 

[Obee1]

Not surprising WS hasn't named his version "The Wally" I suppose.

I like it - we should all start calling it the wally!

So.. I did a Wally first and now I've done a Pagden.

 

[Obee1]

In my experience (just a few years using demaree) I do NOT transfer any brood to the lower box.
The idea is that the Queen and flying bees feel that they have swarmed already. How many swarms arrive at a new location with brood?

I had the same experience the 1st year that I tried it and since them I isolate the Queen on the frame she is on in a spare poly nuc whilst I swap the lower box for a box of drawn comb + some frame of foundation then after shaking a couple of frames of bees from the original BB into the new BB I gently run the queen off the frame she is on into the lower box. That way there is absolutely no brood present.

I was also surprised the first year that the top box was back filled so fast with nectar.

As has been pointed out it is no problem to then swap these frames for capped brood in the lower box as they will move the nectar to make laying room as long as they have enough space in the supers.

Alternatively, if you have the kit and storage space, let them cap the frames in the top box and store them for winter feed.

I did the same as you with the queen - popped her in a nuc then moved the boxes around before popping her back into the new frames. Everything I read said put a frame or two of brood but I agree with you - a swarm has no brood. The other thing that baffles me is - how the bees are fooled into thinking they swarmed when they still live at the same address. More likely they would think someone nicked all our brood and nurse bees! I suppose there's no way of separating the flyers without getting them to fly from a moved hive back to their original spot. Perhaps it would make sense to wait a day or two for the flyers to move into the a/s then actually move the a/s to a new site over 3 miles away.

 

[beeno]

You are obviously commenting on something you have never done. Many on this forum will have had the AS part of a Pagden swarm. Why lose the queen and the swarm if you don't have to???

 

[YorkshireBees]

I did the same as you with the queen - popped her in a nuc then moved the boxes around before popping her back into the new frames. Everything I read said put a frame or two of brood but I agree with you - a swarm has no brood. The other thing that baffles me is - how the bees are fooled into thinking they swarmed when they still live at the same address. More likely they would think someone nicked all our brood and nurse bees! I suppose there's no way of separating the flyers without getting them to fly from a moved hive back to their original spot. Perhaps it would make sense to wait a day or two for the flyers to move into the a/s then actually move the a/s to a new site over 3 miles away.

It's about the conditions inside the box. No brood and plenty of space for the Queen to fill with eggs and less congestion/crowding. All this will reduce swarming tendency.
As most of the house bees are now in the top box some of the foragers will convert back to being house bees.
In terms of locations, I have housed swarms in boxes right next to their original hive and that has never really made a difference (AFAIK).

One final note is that most of the time a demaree will prevent swarming tendencies developing however if they have already started then you are fighting a losing battle.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The other thing that baffles me is - how the bees are fooled into thinking they swarmed when they still live at the same address.

With a Demarree it's not about convincing them they've swarmed - it's about convincing them they've got plenty of room and don't need to, if you see QC's it's too late in most cases to try a demarree.
With a Pagden it's about separating the flying bees (the swarm instigators) from the majority of the colony - they're left with the queen in an empty hive so the theory is their swarming urge is quashed by the lack of younger bees to follow them and a good population to leave behind, maybe that's why it's not that successful.

One final note is that most of the time a demaree will prevent swarming tendencies developing however if they have already started then you are fighting a losing battle.

Exactly.

 

[Tremyfro]

Demarree, pagden, A/S, QE, Snelgrove boards....and now a Wally. No wonder people make mistakes there are so many pitfalls and tiger traps waiting for the uninitiated. And what is more...if you don't read the situation properly and they are determined...all might be in vain.
Tricky wee beasties. I'm definitely trying to keep it simple this year....but nothing can compare with the blind panic which washes over you when you open the hive and find a queen cell....you search frantically for others amongst a colony which minutes before seemed only an average size...now is knee deep in bees which refuse to move off the comb. The Queen becomes invisible despite the bucket of blue you spilt all over her. Bees festoon the front of the hive and swarming seems imminent. Meanwhile the air is full of bees and accusations between you and your beekeeping partner about what to do...why you are not prepared...why has the smoker gone out...again. Both of you trying to decide what the bees are doing....trying to remember how to do a Pagden or a Demarree....what's ' THAT' shouts your partner as you smugly start to describe the Demarree...only to realise you can't remember whether you use one or two QEs....and whether the queen should have open or capped brood. Then there is a pause....and silently you come to grips with the situation and remember the laminated prompts...quietly it all gets sorted.
Just another day in the life of a beekeeper....as we sit down for tea and toast thickly spread with stolen honeycomb.

 

[Obee1]

Demarree, pagden, A/S, QE, Snelgrove boards....and now a Wally. No wonder people make mistakes there are so many pitfalls and tiger traps waiting for the uninitiated. And what is more...if you don't read the situation properly and they are determined...all might be in vain.
Tricky wee beasties. I'm definitely trying to keep it simple this year....but nothing can compare with the blind panic which washes over you when you open the hive and find a queen cell....you search frantically for others amongst a colony which minutes before seemed only an average size...now is knee deep in bees which refuse to move off the comb. The Queen becomes invisible despite the bucket of blue you spilt all over her. Bees festoon the front of the hive and swarming seems imminent. Meanwhile the air is full of bees and accusations between you and your beekeeping partner about what to do...why you are not prepared...why has the smoker gone out...again. Both of you trying to decide what the bees are doing....trying to remember how to do a Pagden or a Demarree....what's ' THAT' shouts your partner as you smugly start to describe the Demarree...only to realise you can't remember whether you use one or two QEs....and whether the queen should have open or capped brood. Then there is a pause....and silently you come to grips with the situation and remember the laminated prompts...quietly it all gets sorted.
Just another day in the life of a beekeeper....as we sit down for tea and toast thickly spread with stolen honeycomb.

Yes indeed - apart from the argument with beekeeping partner. - he is nowhere to be found - bees take up too much time and his garden always gets the attention. The upside is I get to make all the decisions - the downside is I don't know what decision I should make.
One day I may know what the best course of action is.

 

[Obee1]

You are obviously commenting on something you have never done. Many on this forum will have had the AS part of a Pagden swarm. Why lose the queen and the swarm if you don't have to???

If that is aimed at me - no I haven't done a pagden before - or a demaree. That's the point of the thread. To discuss and learn - but actually I have attached a QE to cover the entrance of the hive so I don't lose the queen.

 

[beeno]

If that is aimed at me - no I haven't done a pagden before - or a demaree. That's the point of the thread. To discuss and learn - but actually I have attached a QE to cover the entrance of the hive so I don't lose the queen.

No, it most certainly was not, it was aimed at Jenkins. I am so pleased you have done that as it gives you a fighting chance. If HM is nice and fat again in 7 days time you should be ok to take it off. Good luck.

 

[Obee1]

No, it most certainly was not, it was aimed at Jenkins. I am so pleased you have done that as it gives you a fighting chance. If HM is nice and fat again in 7 days time you should be ok to take it off. Good luck.

Phew. I am relieved. I wondered what I had done to upset you! As I said, having thought it through there really is nothing to lose by putting a QE on them. I fear she is past her prime now, and I have new queens on order - but she produces the calmest colony ever and I will be upset when her reign ends. I'm so fond of her I hope she will live in a retirement nuc in the garden and her frames of brood can boost other colonies.
I'll let you know how things go.......

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

No, it most certainly was not, it was aimed at Jenkins. I am so pleased you have done that as it gives you a fighting chance. If HM is nice and fat again in 7 days time you should be ok to take it off. Good luck.

It's "Emyr"

If that is aimed at me - no I haven't done a pagden before - or a demaree. That's the point of the thread. To discuss and learn - but actually I have attached a QE to cover the entrance of the hive so I don't lose the queen.

I'd be a little careful with that; I'm not expressing a view on this fight with the infidel Saeson but there are drones in swarms, and I can't see how there wouldn't be in AS. They would not choke a full QE, but an entrance with an excluder is a lot smaller however configured.

 

[Eyeman]

I'm so fond of her I hope she will live in a retirement nuc in the garden and her frames of brood can boost other colonies.

If she makes it I would use her eggs/young larvae to raise other queens and replace some of you less desirable ones.

 

[Obee1]

It's "Emyr"



I'd be a little careful with that; I'm not expressing a view on this fight with the infidel Saeson but there are drones in swarms, and I can't see how there wouldn't be in AS. They would not choke a full QE, but an entrance with an excluder is a lot smaller however configured.

How will there be lots of drones? There were none in there when I assembled the a/s. No brood containing drone and the colony consists of returning flyers coming to join the queen. Any drone that were in the parent colony will be kept out by the QE.
Also the hive is in my garden - putting the QE on the outside means I can keep an eye out for any undue congestion at the entrance.
Not wanting to get involved in arguments either - but re the Jenkins/Emyr point. It is not good forum etiquette to use someone's real name - unless they use it themselves. I use my real name to forumites in PM's but would not expect them to divulge it on open forum.