Demaree. I knew it was too good to be true

[Obee1]

I demaree'd my HM buckfast hive 19 days ago. Queenie in bottom with one frame brood. QE three supers - QE (as part of a snelgrove board) and all the brood in the top box. (I also pinched a frame of brood and food to make a nuc)

I went back after 4 days to check for the top box making queen cells - they did make 3 which I removed. As Wally Shaw predicts they are backfilling the cells as they emerge so I planned on extracting the honey from these top frames.

As it is now day 19 I'm getting worried the queen may run out of space down below so despite it raining I went in. Top box nearly all emerged and back filled. Weighs a ton. Middle three supers are half full not capped. Bottom box has lots of brood and QUEEN CELLS. Not yet capped but one not far off. Queenie looks skinny. a

So I did a pagden a/s. Queen on original site. As this queen is so prolific I promoted her to a 14/12 box and gave a few drawn bb combs but mostly 14/12 foundation. I seem to recall erica saying something about nuc ing the queen. How exactly? And why? Do you lock her in?
The bees got very arsey due to the quite heavy rain so I just reassembled hive as a/s and ran. But I put supers with parent hive. Should I put them with a/s? Or split them?
I really don't want to lose my fave queen.
Any helpful comments guys?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You should have carried on swapping brood in the bottom for vacated comb in the top - are you telling me she filled a whole brood box in nineteen days?

 

[beeno]

Hi Obee1,
Make sure you put a QX on the AS until HM is nice and fat again otherwise she may very well be off!

 

[Obee1]

You should have carried on swapping brood in the bottom for vacated comb in the top - are you telling me she filled a whole brood box in nineteen days?

No she didn't. Lots of frames were completely full absolutely wall to wall - but towards the back was newly drawn comb only just starting to fill with nectar. So she wasn't out of space. Baffled why they would swarm. I looked in 6 days ago and all looked good. In order to cycle the frames you have to be pretty nifty catching them before they backfill. I wanted to get her on 14/12 instead of double brood so was planning on giving her a bigger box and a few foundation frames today anyway.

So do you cycle your frames?

 

[Obee1]

Hi Obee1,
Make sure you put a QX on the AS until HM is nice and fat again otherwise she may very well be off!

Good idea. Hope she's not too skinny and can slip through. Will go do it shortly.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So do you cycle your frames?

Yes, until I'm satisfied swarming fever is over - even if there's some fresh stores in there, no problems - as long as there is plenty of storage space in the supers they will move it up.

 

[Tremyfro]

I don't know how you manage to lift those boxes....I couldn't contemplate doing that manipulation...especially having to take it all apart for inspections and swopping brood frames....putting it all back together....sounds a nightmare. However...I don't feel sorry for you having to lift all that yummy honey!
Two of my colonies are busy filling one side of a Beehaus each...so should they think about getting too big...it will be the Sideways Shuffle for them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi Obee1,
Make sure you put a QX on the AS until HM is nice and fat again otherwise she may very well be off!

Good idea. Hope she's not too skinny and can slip through. Will go do it shortly.

And have some reet good fun picking out all the dead drones stuck in it a few days later. I would not say 'make sure' definitely not exactly a conventional or thought out approach to an A/S, just a bumbling attitude without courage of conviction.
Another bit of bad advice which beginners will pick up on and see it as an easy way out of doing a proper A/S

 

[Obee1]

And have some reet good fun picking out all the dead drones stuck in it a few days later. I would not say 'make sure' definitely not exactly a conventional or thought out approach to an A/S, just a bumbling attitude without courage of conviction.
Another bit of bad advice which beginners will pick up on and see it as an easy way out of doing a proper A/S

So what tweeks would you suggest? Where should my supers be? If not with the A/S then should I feed syrup - there is excellent forage here but its forecast rain. However these bees go out in the rain. Should I give them a frame of honey or does that defeat the idea that they've swarmed.

 

[Obee1]

I don't know how you manage to lift those boxes....I couldn't contemplate doing that manipulation...especially having to take it all apart for inspections and swopping brood frames....putting it all back together....sounds a nightmare. However...I don't feel sorry for you having to lift all that yummy honey!
Two of my colonies are busy filling one side of a Beehaus each...so should they think about getting too big...it will be the Sideways Shuffle for them.

It was a challenge lifting a full bb from atop four boxes on a stand. However I struggle more with the idea of lifting a full 14/12. Now they are heavy even with just foundation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So what tweeks would you suggest? Where should my supers be? If not with the A/S then should I feed syrup - there is excellent forage here but its forecast rain. However these bees go out in the rain. Should I give them a frame of honey or does that defeat the idea that they've swarmed.

No tweaks neccessary - either do a Wally Shaw (just getting rid of the flying bees should cool them down, queen cells or no) or, as per Pagden, Queen on one frame in a box full of foundation with supers on top and nurse bees with brood three feet away - you've just said you have brood frames with stores in so leave them one of those until in a few days they have foragers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It was a challenge lifting a full bb from atop four boxes on a stand.

That's why I like to keep my hives in pairs - Using one hive as a stand to just shift the top BB over on top of it for an inspection.

 

[Eyeman]

So what tweeks would you suggest? Where should my supers be? If not with the A/S then should I feed syrup - there is excellent forage here but its forecast rain. However these bees go out in the rain. Should I give them a frame of honey or does that defeat the idea that they've swarmed.

Did you use drawn comb in the bottom box with the queen?
Otherwise your Demaree as described was how I would have done it.
Put in down to bad luck and just one of those things. How many times do the bees not read the same books that we do!
Dave Cushman's site says:

The original Demaree method actually allowed the bees to swarm, which required that they be collected (a great deal of un-necessary work and a risk of losing the bees completely). After some trials it was decided to treat the colonies as if they had swarmed even if they were making no swarm preparations.

This regimental treatment of all colonies was aimed at suppressing swarming. and was totally successful for a period of 14 to 21 days. To further extend the non swarming period, the queen excluders could be removed allowing the original queen full use of the combs. This gave another 14 to 21 days with about 90% chance of swarm suppression.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Dave Cushman's site says:

The original Demaree method actually allowed the bees to swarm, which required that they be collected (a great deal of un-necessary work and a risk of losing the bees completely). After some trials it was decided to treat the colonies as if they had swarmed even if they were making no swarm preparations.

This regimental treatment of all colonies was aimed at suppressing swarming. and was totally successful for a period of 14 to 21 days. To further extend the non swarming period, the queen excluders could be removed allowing the original queen full use of the combs. This gave another 14 to 21 days with about 90% chance of swarm suppression.

Strange - I've read Demarree's original article and it never mentioned leaving them swarm - rather, to continue shifting brood to the top box until swarming urge was supressed.

 

[Eyeman]

Is the somewhere where we can download the original Demaree?
Thanks

 

[Obee1]

Did you use drawn comb in the bottom box with the queen?
Otherwise your Demaree as described was how I would have done it.
Put in down to bad luck and just one of those things. How many times do the bees not read the same books that we do!
Dave Cushman's site says:

My demaree used drawn comb - I think one or two foundation as I recall. I really wish I'd read that bit about the timings - 14 days respite from swarming - and removal of QE. All last year I ran this very prolific colony with no QE and it was a tower - but made no swarm preps. Think I should have stuck to throwing the QE in the willows

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

All last year I ran this very prolific colony with no QE and it was a tower - but made no swarm preps.

You can't base all your beekeeping on conclusions drawn from one year's beekeeping

Think I should have stuck to throwing the QE in the willows

Forget Demarree then - it's all dependant on the QX

Is the somewhere where we can download the original Demaree?
Thanks

I've found it - it was in the American bee journal 1892 April 21st edition - I think the one I read before was a bit more detailed and from Snelgrove's book. I should think that he worked a bit on the method in the following few years and that's what Snelgrove published as he'd only used it for two seasons when he wrote the article.
The only mention of swarming is when he was forcing them to fill sections. No mention whatsoever of removing queen excluders. Undoubtedly people have added their own thought to it over the years such as the more recent one online which says you have to see QC's before you start doing it!!!
Demarree used drawn comb although he said foundation would work.
There's a massive repository of works here: http://bees.library.cornell.edu/b/bees/browse.html

 

[beeno]

Do yourself a favour Obee1, put QX on for a week and check if the queen is fat again she probably will be. It is better to have a few upset drones than losing your favourite queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do us all a favour and stop constantly talking rubbish

 

[beeno]

And have some reet good fun picking out all the dead drones stuck in it a few days later. I would not say 'make sure' definitely not exactly a conventional or thought out approach to an A/S, just a bumbling attitude without courage of conviction.
Another bit of bad advice which beginners will pick up on and see it as an easy way out of doing a proper A/S

We are talking about a demaree gone wrong here under your advice and as chrisb would say we are now looking at retrieving the situation. Letting a £40 queen swarm is what I would call a bumbling attitude with no courage. A few drones is of no consequence to the colony, but losing a good queen is. Your Ubermensch attitude is getting tiring on the forum.