Deep national vs standard brood chamber

[RobKing]

As a new beekeeper, I am intrigued regarding the possible avenues to explore in the future as far as new things to try are concerned. At present, I have two national hives and I am hoping that this year I may expand one of my colonies to a third hive; I like my colonies - they are gentle, and have carnolian queens that seem to create friendly, hard working bees that don't seem to mind me being around them. However, is it a good idea to venture into deep national frames (14 x 12) in a brood chamber rather than stick with the standard sized frames? I assume that it provides a colony with more room so less chance of swarming which carnolians apparently are prone to. Any advice from anyone here?

 

[Swarm]

Or stick with what you have (cheaper) and run them as double brood.

 

[itma]

Rob, I like 14x12s because I like single brood and long lugs.

However, I don't believe that because something works for me, it works for everyone. (Beware - I'm in the minority with that standpoint!)

My suggestion would be that you work a 14x12 before committing to going that way yourself. Life is simpler when you have one common brood frame size across all your hives - and more awkward with a mixture.

Just don't try and shift a 14x12 by yourself, unless you are a match for Obelix!

 

[Edwardking]

Switch to commercial - you won't regret it. Swarms from commercials are very rare!

 

[itma]

Or stick with what you have (cheaper) and run them as double brood.

Check out the (new version) 10-frame poly nationals from CWynneJones.
Seems a nice choice for a 10% lighter double (or 1.8x) brood ... which are the same external size as wooden nationals, and so fit perfectly with your existing roofs, etc.

 

[Swarm]

I'm thinking of trying out a couple of these as a comparison to the other polys.

 

[Roola]

I'm considering trying polys next year... Thought I'd decided then found out there are a fair few woodpeckers in the area so now not sure, was also trying to decide between paynes polys and the cwj ones.

 

[davnig]

Switch to commercial - you won't regret it. Swarms from commercials are very rare!

What do you reckon is the difference that makes them rare in a commercial??

 

[mbc]

Switch to commercial - you won't regret it. Swarms from commercials are very rare!

I'm a fan of commercials but I havent noticed this, though you might get less swarming in comparison to a nest constricted to a single standard national box.

 

[REDWOOD]

My first year I got a carnolian colony on five frames and put them in a deep BB, lets say it wasn't long before they filled the BB and swarmed, which I promised myself I would not let this happen again so next year I switched to 14 x 12 BB and only one colony so far has gone into swarm mode. The other advantage is they don't need feeding so much before winter. Like itma said it works for me

 

[Edwardking]

Commercials are big enough to enable a decent brood to develop over the summer, and shrink for winter. In Somerset the national is half the size a colony requires so will swarm very easily.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I'm considering trying polys next year... Thought I'd decided then found out there are a fair few woodpeckers in the area so now not sure ....

Once the local green woodpecker population has the knack of getting at the bees the hives will need protection, it doesn't matter what they're made of. Although I suppose concrete would be something of a challenge.

 

[alanf]

...deep national frames (14 x 12) in a brood chamber rather than stick with the standard sized frames?...

Before the terminology gets confusing, have a look at the larger suppliers' catalogues or the original "National" leaflets - all available online. The usual frame in the brood box is "Deep". The suppliers label them DN - for Deep National. The larger brood box is usually termed 14x12, sometimes extra deep or jumbo but simpler to stick to 14x12 which is what all the manufacturers seem to use.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Commercials are big enough to enable a decent brood to develop over the summer, and shrink for winter. In Somerset the national is half the size a colony requires so will swarm very easily.

I used to run quite a lot of commercials, would choose them every time over the 14x12 abomination, but now only run standard national deeps.

 

[davnig]

Commercials are big enough to enable a decent brood to develop over the summer, and shrink for winter. In Somerset the national is half the size a colony requires so will swarm very easily.

we're talking 14x12 which is actually bigger than a commercial if you do the maths so your argument doesn't hold water

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Once the local green woodpecker population has the knack of getting at the bees the hives will need protection, it doesn't matter what they're made of. Although I suppose concrete would be something of a challenge.

Stainless steel overcover?

 

[mbc]

I used to run quite a lot of commercials, would choose them every time over the 14x12 abomination, but now only run standard national deeps.

I run mostly nationals but with a good number of commercials too, both are excellent formats, and I agree the 14x12 is an abomination.
I thgink if I was to start all over again I would go with smith hives.

 

[Nige.Coll]

if you wanted to compare a 14 x 12 to a standard national the cheapest way would be to buy the converter eke and frames/foundation and do a bailey comb change .
you could see for yourself then if it makes a difference to them swarming.

 

[victor meldrew]

Oh! Dear . God help the questioner.
Commercials don't swarm ? One guy runs commercials and nationals but would go for smiths , the smallest of "off the peg hives"
Let's all go commercial ,prob solved no swarming Varroa irradiated in a couple of seasons , ' Heaven'
VM


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[mbc]

Oh! Dear . God help the questioner.
Commercials don't swarm ? One guy runs commercials and nationals but would go for smiths , the smallest of "off the peg hives"
Let's all go commercial ,prob solved no swarming Varroa irradiated in a couple of seasons , ' Heaven'
VM

I should have added, my particular vision of beekeeping nirvana for myself was using smiths along the lines of OSB, but probably with excluders thrown in at times, bliss!

Edit: Smiths have the same internal dimensions as nationals, but are a simpler box as they dont need the silly rebates for long luggs which make the national box more complicated to manufacture.
After years of playing with nationals, commercials, wbc's and the occasional langstroth, I have settled on the national size frame being best for my bees and beekeeping system, the only downside being the over complicated construction to accommodate those long luggs, solution = Smith