Dead bees

[itma]

... 20kg of stores should, for most, be adequate winter provisions. What you took off is totally irelevant; what you left on is much more important. ...

Don't forget that you will need to think about affording around 30kg of sugar around the end of August to get two colonies through the winter. ...

Whilst I fully understand there can be a requirement to feed either syrup or paste there is certainly no definite rule about this and I find some of the figures quoted in this and other threads extraordinary.
...
There are many years when I have no requirement to feed at all OR perhaps a small quantity, (perhaps 3 or 4 litres each in autumn), selectively to some colonies. To me it's a matter of judgement and hefting and I accept that this is not a skill that can be learnt from a book or a forum, but then what skills can be?

Confusingly, this is all pretty good advice!

So, to sort it out a little ...

Conventional advice is that about 40lb (some say 20kg) of honey needs to be in the hive, for a good chance of getting through winter without needing a fondant top-up to survive until March/April.
That quantity of honey is at least 9 (ordinary National deep brood) frames absolutely full of honey. A plain single-brood National needs to be pretty much rammed with honey before the Winter! (Which is one reason some/many either use brood and a half, double brood or bigger hives.)
If you don't see that in October, you need to be supplementing their late foraging with syrup.
It might be as much as 15kg of sugar per hive, or as little as a couple of kg, but you'd have to look to see what your hive, this year, might be short of.
But it will vary, so you need to either check, or stuff them with excess.
And yes, what they consume will vary with the bees and the severity of the winter.
Which is why, through the winter, you should be 'hefting' (checking the feel of the weight of the hive), and getting fondant on by the kilo (and making sure from then on that it doesn't run out) if you judge that they are feeling worryingly light.

I'd just suggest that its never a bad time to try the weight of your hive, so that you can relate the feel of the weight to the what you see inside. Lots of practice is the best way to build up a 'feel' for what's inside.

 

[drstitson]

how much is two large helpings of fondant? two half blocks (ie 12kg)?
since many on here feed several gallons of 2:1 in autumn starvation sounds reasonable.

however - as well as the starvation issue the other thing that surprises people is that often best colony is lost of winter - strength/yield throughout season being an indicator of continuous strong brooding (especially this last autumn) with corresponding varroa burden.

 

[CB008]

A trick that I should have learned in year one was hefting to check stores. Seems a bit strange at first but you quickly get the hang of it. Fondant should be an extra if hefting suggests few stores left - for me I like to give them a slab of candy as insurance just in case.

 

[starcana]

Thanks to all of you who have tried to post helpful comments. It is much appreciated especially the advice re hefting. To those of you who have been critical, don't worry, you can't make me feel any worse than I already do! I'm still guessing that it was under feeding. Why? Well, I just got it wrong. I had got this colony through last winter (when I lost a weak colony) and hadn't appreciated that because they were so strong they needed much more feed.

I was also nervous about keeping disturbing them and causing temperature drop because after doing my course and feeling that at last I had a bit more understanding of what I was inspecting for, I was dead keen to keep looking but made myself hold back in the winter. I obviously just got it all wrong which is very disappointing for me and disastersous for the bees. But it's onwards and upwards I hope if I get some swarms this year. Thanks again.

 

[drstitson]

"I was also nervous about keeping disturbing them and causing temperature drop "

couple of points re this:

1. learn to heft (or buy a cheap luggage scale).

2. feed well in autumn

3. only add fondant in substantial quantities (so no repeated openings of hive)

 

[itma]

4. Get a see-through ("polycarbonate") crown board, so you can get a quick visual without much disturbance or chilling.

"Experience is what you get just after you needed it." Learn from it!

 

[drstitson]

i'll second the PC crownboard - great things.

 

[Dishmop]

they need about 2-3 gallons of 2:1 feed and in low temps we have had then give them fondant.

Sh**.... mine must have sent out for take aways then.

 

[Chris Luck]

As an extreme example I never touch my KTB hives and they have to look after themselves which with no stores removed they manage perfectly well. Photo taken in the last half hour. Chris

 

[richardbees]

Oliver

I'm glad you are not my doctor or pharmacist!

....how about your chiropodist?

Chris, great pic (as always) is it just me or is it upside down?

richard

 

[Queens59]

Hard luck Starcana - you must feel wretched. I think possibly the best maxim is if in doubt feed and then weigh, weigh and weigh again. The warm winter was unusual so bees were more active than usual so also hungrier - it caught many napping in the autumn/winter.

Take heart & take care - you won't make the same mistake again...

 

[tkwinston4]

Thanks to all of you who have tried to post helpful comments. It is much appreciated especially the advice re hefting. To those of you who have been critical, don't worry, you can't make me feel any worse than I already do! I'm still guessing that it was under feeding. Why? Well, I just got it wrong. I had got this colony through last winter (when I lost a weak colony) and hadn't appreciated that because they were so strong they needed much more feed.

I was also nervous about keeping disturbing them and causing temperature drop because after doing my course and feeling that at last I had a bit more understanding of what I was inspecting for, I was dead keen to keep looking but made myself hold back in the winter. I obviously just got it all wrong which is very disappointing for me and disastersous for the bees. But it's onwards and upwards I hope if I get some swarms this year. Thanks again.

Please stop beating yourself up about it. You will learn by each loss and there is a good chance you wont do it again.

My first year I lost a hive due to a drone laying queen. Second year wasps. Third year damp. I learnt from all of those mistakes and touch wood I have never repeated them.

This year I lost a hive due to starvation but it was through no fault of my own. When I opened them up they had stores and they had died on one end of the frame, with their stores being on the other end and the fondant directly above. They just weren't strong enough to survive. Nature decided not me that it was their time. I know, hand on heart, that I did everything right but sometimes its just their time to go.

Look to the future and plan for your next colonies.

 

[starcana]

Yeh feeling a bit better about it today - so tomorrow will go out, clean the hive and do a bit more investigatory work to see if under feeding was the real cause. Thanks again everyone, may post some pics if I'm in any doubt.

 

[jallen]

lost two coloneys this winter clean up hives reorder bees and try gain

 

[Dishmop]

And yes, what they consume will vary with the bees and the severity of the winter.

My observation from my obs hive was that ate very little during the winter, but started to eat larger amounts when they started flying again because they are using more energy, and also use more of the stores for feeding brood.

 

[itma]

My observation from my obs hive was that ate very little during the winter, but started to eat larger amounts when they started flying again because they are using more energy, and also use more of the stores for feeding brood.

Oh yes!
I suspect that the energy consumption/temp graph is somewhat u-shaped.
The bees will use more energy if they are active and not clustered.
I should indeed have more pedantically said something like "will vary with the severity (or lack of severity) of the winter" ...

/Point is it will vary from year to year, and be 'hard' to predict! So heft and heft again ...

 

[Dishmop]

I should indeed have more pedantically said something like "will vary with the severity (or lack of severity) of the winter" .

I dont know. Would it? Do they eat less if its a severe winter and more when its not severe?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Do they eat less if its a severe winter and more when its not severe?

I think they eat more stores/fondant in a less severe winter, because they're more active and there's less natural food available. They have to get their energy from somewhere.

Although they have been collecting pollen on warm days ever since they arrived, our two, near-starving-when-they-came-to-us, hives have got through almost 20kg of fondant between them since 18th January. It works out at about 175g of fondant per hive each day over those 57 days, although it isn't because one has used more than the other, but it's a handy baseline estimate.

The hives are only now starting to get a little bit heavier, so they've only just starting to collect enough to store rather than consume immediately, and they're still taking fondant.

 

[Dishmop]

I think they eat more stores/fondant in a less severe winter, because they're more active and there's less natural food available. They have to get their energy from somewhere.

My thoughts also.


since they have been collecting I see no evidence on my obs hive that they are storing any but they could be putting it where I cant see between the frames.