Dartington hive

[Tremyfro]

I have been thinking of putting my Paynes jumbo colony into a Dartington hive. The main reason is because of the sheer weight of the jumbo brood box. I need to change foundation this year and generally change the hive so it can have a good clean up. I was thinking of changing to a national brood box but already know that they are going to need two brood boxes. Last year they just about managed with a jumbo plus a super which they expanded into. We managed to manipulate the frames and avoided a swarm. I have looked at various means of managing this big colony to achieve two things....a clean hive and new foundation and also less lifting heavy boxes. I could do a Bailey change for the foundation but I only have a national box...so would be off the 14 x12 frames and would have to use two national boxes. I suppose I could use an eke to stay on the larger frames.
I was thinking that if I had a Dartington...it might be the answer. I could keep the larger frames...could still do foundation change...and could expand the brood nest as necessary...without lifting boxes.
Thoughts welcome....and if anyone has a Dartington they would be happy to part with...please contact me.

 

[Anduril]

How good are your diy skills? For £21 you could buy Construction information for Dartington hives. Abe books, Arden books etc

 

[Tremyfro]

Hmmmm...in my head I am a very skilled DIYer but in reality...unless I have really good tools to do the heavy work of cutting, sawing etc...then I am useless. However, on the bright side...I have a husband( a very fussy, pernickety, OCD, perfectionist type of DIYer) who could undertake such a project. That is if I didn't mind waiting forever...for every corner to be perfect, every part done and redone....
I am hopeful that someone.....not too far to travel to...might have one they no longer use...who might part with it.
I have sent for the plans.....they are my back up plan!

 

[MuswellMetro]

what boxes do you use for swarm control?, it is usual to have an extra hive if doing a pagden artificial swarm

 

[itma]

Mostly, you can shift a colony frame-by-frame into a spare hive, if you should need to move them - for example shifting the 'brood' when doing an artificial swarm. If you really feel the need, you can then move their 'own' box, and then restore the frames. Not quite so instant, but no really heavy lifting. Even temporarily putting 5 frames into a nuc halves the weight to be lifted.

However, when/if the time comes to be doing a lot of box-shuffling, I ask a pal round to lift the other side of my 14x12s. And I'm delighted to return any such favours.
Having one or more "bee-buddies" is one of those assets (like drawn comb) that are truly precious assets to develop as you progress.

 

[Tremyfro]

Yes valid point Itma....my OH is my bee buddy and he does the lifting mainly....but the Paynes jumbo is a big heavy box at the best of times.
At the time of ordering my colony...I asked for the jumbo...thinking the larger frames would give a bigger area for the bees. However, I hadn't realised the sheer weight of it. The rest of my equipment is nationals...so I had thought to move the bees onto national frames and to that end I have got an eke that I can use to do a frame change...BUT...it doesn't solve the problem as this particular colony is very prolific and has lots of bees in it. I would definitely have to have double brood boxes. Which means going through two on each inspection and also my poor OH having to lift the brood box. So I have been puzzling over how to sort this colony out so as to avoid the lifting...yet giving it enough room to grow without losing the lot to a swarm. ...I don't want to increase to too many hives. We ended up with three last year...with a lot of juggling. So I thought that a Dartington or...following suggestions a LDH with frames might be the answer.

 

[MuswellMetro]

looks like your queen is converting everything to brood rather than storing it as honey, i would requeen with a local queen

at 14x12plus a half, you are on double nat brood terratory and on colonies that sixze 1 would expected a yield in excess of 120lbs of honey per year, (#Are you getting yeilds that high ?)

EDIT

as an after thought, is it just due to a high level of stores comming out of winter and no place for HM to lay, A poly hive uses less stores than a cedar hive, i remember the first yer i tried poly 14x12 hives , i had to remove and extract 5 frames in May due to honey block and no room for brood, that would account for the heavy poly box as well, as all stores and no brood

 

[Tremyfro]

I like my Queen...there were a lot of bees and in fact it seems as though a lot have made it through the winter too. Although it was the first year with this hive....they made lots of honey...we took off about 40 pounds but left them loads to overwinter with. My husband could barely lift the box! Plus they had a super with a number of frames to clean out. I am sure when we go into the hive in the spring...we will find left over stores. Which is OK because we can save it for later. Although it isn't all about the honey...the family have enjoyed eating it this winter and we still have loads left over. I like these bees...they are easy to work with. I don't want to buy more jumbo boxes for doing Bailey frame changes or for swarm control and I can manage with using ekes but the problem still remains. All the other hives are nationals...and I am happy with them. If I move these bees into a horizontal hive...I think everything will become easier...cutting down on extra equipment.....cutting down on the lifting. I think I am convincing myself...ha ha ...

 

[user 6228]

I have been thinking of putting my Paynes jumbo colony into a Dartington hive. The main reason is because of the sheer weight of the jumbo brood box. I need to change foundation this year and generally change the hive so it can have a good clean up. I was thinking of changing to a national brood box but already know that they are going to need two brood boxes. Last year they just about managed with a jumbo plus a super which they expanded into. We managed to manipulate the frames and avoided a swarm. I have looked at various means of managing this big colony to achieve two things....a clean hive and new foundation and also less lifting heavy boxes. I could do a Bailey change for the foundation but I only have a national box...so would be off the 14 x12 frames and would have to use two national boxes. I suppose I could use an eke to stay on the larger frames.
I was thinking that if I had a Dartington...it might be the answer. I could keep the larger frames...could still do foundation change...and could expand the brood nest as necessary...without lifting boxes.
Thoughts welcome....and if anyone has a Dartington they would be happy to part with...please contact me.

put them in a highly insulated hive... then they wont need so many bees

 

[Tremyfro]

Well atm they are in the Paynes Jumbo brood box. It is a polyhive...well insulated. The walls are really thick polystyrene.

 

[Helen]

Dartingtons are fairly easy to build. Easiest is to get your 8x4 plywood sheets from somewhere that has an in-house saw and get them to do as many cuts as possible. These will be accurate and straight. Also makes the wood easier to take home in the car.

 

[tudorcd]

Here in NZ I am promoting using One Size Boxes (3/4 supers) for the brood box and honey - they don't get too heavy and you can use 2 or 3 boxes for the brood box. And use queen excluder, if you want to.
Works very well for hobby beekeepers.
Very flexible, and very simple to prevent swarming - but may be well outside the current teaching of hive management in the UK.
But now may be the time to do this now that you are doing a major hardware change.

 

[bpmurray]

Here in NZ I am promoting using One Size Boxes (3/4 supers) for the brood box and honey - they don't get too heavy and you can use 2 or 3 boxes for the brood box. And use queen excluder, if you want to.
Works very well for hobby beekeepers.
Very flexible, and very simple to prevent swarming - but may be well outside the current teaching of hive management in the UK.
But now may be the time to do this now that you are doing a major hardware change.

Are you describing a Rose hive?

 

[Tremyfro]

A photo would help me see what you mean.
I am looking at options for rehiving a big colony. Atm it is in a Jumbo National poly hive. Last year it was bursting at the seams and we ended up with brood and a half. So I was thinking along the lines of moving them into a long hive like a Dartington. To help with brood space and cut down on lifting heavy brood boxes. I'm not looking forward to us lifting the brood box to get the half brood out from underneath. We also have to do a foundation change as the comb is looking very dark on some of the frames. I did replace a few last year but it is tricky as we only have this hive with the big frames...I took out. Couple of frames with all honey on them...to increase the brood space...we scraped them and then put them back in the hive straight away. Being a new beekeeper...I hadn't computed the extra equipment required to change foundation. So somehow have to make a decision. Whether to move the whole colony into a different hive type...like a Dartington....which will accommodate the 14x12 frames or to do a Bailey frame change onto smaller frames and go double brood boxes. There is lots to like about how the frames are examined and moved in a Dartington. There would be less lifting.
My other two hives have much smaller colonies. I have got the extra brood boxes if required but they are on BS national frames...so the boxes are lighter.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Heavens.....what sort of bee fills a 14x12 and a super with brood?
I am envious, truly!
Did you get much honey from them last year....or just bees?

As for a Bailey, i did two last year and didn't like it at all.
If you artificially swarm them with a Pagden or suchlike you will get a whole box of new frames.

 

[Tremyfro]

Ha ha they are Trem y Fro Super Bees!.....we didn't get them until late and had missed the early flows around here. I can't remember exactly how much we had as I only started to think about calculating it when I started filling jars. We had 2 full 14x12 frames of honey and 2 supers....but a few of the super frames were only partially filled. As I was worried about taking too much I left them with a super plus what ever was in the brood box. When my OH lifted it so we could put the super under it...he nearly blew a gasket! I had to be really quick to get the box under before he dropped it. He is a big man too. So probably left too much honey. I hope all will be revealed on the first inspection. When I peaked in the clear cover board a couple of days ago....the entire surface of the top bars of the frames was boiling with bees. Perhaps that is normal? My other 2 colonies were clearly occupying a circle of frames. Above which there were bees. It was interesting to see the area of the hive that they were favouring.
In the big colony...
Last year the queen laid wall to wall brood. The last 2 frames at each end had a mixture of brood, pollen and honey. But all might have changed after I stopped doing inspections.

 

[Tremyfro]

Now running off to reread Pagden method.....

 

[tudorcd]

The method is based on the Rose Hive method, but you can use a queen excluder if that suits your bees.
The hives can go as high as you need, pic attached.
Over winter usually in 3 boxes, the top one stores, and then go up to 6, 7 or 8 over summer.
And you can move/swap frames and boxes as needed, or let the bees arrange things to suit.
Converting from Full Depth langstroth boxes is easy, as is the lifting.
It really does simplify some aspects of bee keeping for hobby beekeepers.

 

[Tremyfro]

An impressive tower of supers! Sadly I couldn't use that method of beekeeping...several reasons
There are too many boxes to lift for each inspection....I am 5'3" and my husband is getting too old!
I admire anyone who can create such an edifice of honey....but we have high winds on our hilltop! Atm gusts of 75 mph....so anything like this would be decorating the woods over the hill!
I appreciate your suggestions though.
Thx

 

[Tremyfro]

Hmmm....I remembered the Pagden method as I reread it. We were shown this on our Beekeeping Training. With the Pagden...you need another whole hive of the same size. I don't have that atm. I don't really want to buy this size again because I will be perpetuating the problems I already have with this big brood box. It will work splendidly with the MB nationals...and I have the equipment to do this. And I will create increase too. I can do a brood foundation change if I use an eke to make a national into a 12x14. But then if I recombine...I am back to the old problem of a big colony and two brood boxes. Ho hum.....the grey cells are taking a bashing.
I think I have decided on a Dartington style hive. I can do a brood foundation change at the same time, the brood can go into the other side of the hive, then I can recombine after all the brood has emerged. Then take out the dirty frames and replace with clean for the colony to expand onto. If I end up with an extra queen...I might use her for another colony in the old Paynes jumbo box as insurance for the summer.
That's it ....decision made....oh I feel so much better....
Now I can look forward to using my first long hive.....