Conflicting advice about queen cells

[bpmurray]

I have a fantastic laying queen - she sprays eggs all over the place - brood out to the edges and on 8 of 11 frames. She's really good and prolific. There's room in the brood box and I have another broodbox on top as a kind of super (I want drawn comb for next year). However, there are 3 queen cells drawn down on one site of one frame - what I assumed to be supercedure cells, although I have no idea why they don't like the queen.

Now the problem is that this evening I was at a very successful, well-managed apiary, and the beek there said that I shouldn't assume that they are supercedure cells, that this time of year they're kinda half-heartedly trying to build swarm cells. His suggestion was to break down the queen cells and wait to see if they really go for it and build loads of cells, particularly since the swarming impulse is coming to a close as the blackberry blossoms appear.

So, are these supercedure cells or are they lazy swarm cells. And should I tear them down or leave them alone?

 

[GlenJ]

You've got 4 hives, so back up is available if you make a mistake. My question would be "what's in these cells?" Your question is impossible to answer without more information or pictures. At the end of the day you have to get to know your own bees and how they respond to your own local weather etc.

 

[bpmurray]

You've got 4 hives, so back up is available if you make a mistake. My question would be "what's in these cells?" Your question is impossible to answer without more information or pictures. At the end of the day you have to get to know your own bees and how they respond to your own local weather etc.

I wish - that's the only queenright hive! I have one with a very pretty QC about to open, one that has a drone-layer, one with a 10-day-old queen and this. So I really don't have a huge amount of wiggleroom.

The cells are about 3/4" long, half-filled with royal jelly with a grub sloshing around in it.

However, I take your point - if I consider my options, removing the cells will work since it will still be possible for them to draw down new QCs form the other eggs or young larvae.

 

[betterbee]

Make a small nuc with your queen,leave best queen cell in parent hive

 

[Russel]

You will soon learn that bees don't follow our rules and swarm cells can appear any where on a frame, or at least they do with our bees.
Splitting the colony would seem best option, make sure you check frames for queen cells and don't put them in the box with your queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You will soon learn that bees don't follow our rules and swarm cells can appear any where on a frame, or at least they do with our bees.

especially at this time of year, if you see queencells, they're on the point of swarming, knocking down QC's is not really an option as they can make more using older larvae and be away before the next inspection in seven days.
I have seen bees swarm with only one QC in the 'classic' supersedure location.
In this case I'd say they are swarm cells so do an A/S - at least you'll have an extra colony to replace your drone layer who I'd despatch or shake out soonest.
if there was any chance it could be supersedure (I doubt it) take the queen away in a nuc.

 

[bpmurray]

Rather than a full AS, would taking the queen out into a nuc as a kinda AS work? I'd prefer to keep myself to a max of 4 hives, and I want to get some honey - after all, we're just coming into the traditional main flow. The idea would be to unite once they settled down - make them hopelessly queenless and bring HRH back.

 

[bingevader]

Why do you think splitting to a nuc is only a kinda AS?
Reuniting makes perfect sense if you're not splitting to increase the number of hives.
But if you are worried about the state of your other queens, why make the original hive hopelessly queenless?
Bring on a new queen from the queen cells that are present and then if she's not needed, you can either squish her or let the 2 queens fight it out when you reunite.

 

[bpmurray]

I just checked - the dronelayer hive is now OK - loads of eggs and some sealed brood. So that doesn't need requeening. Another had a new queen emerge 10 days ago, so I'll leave that another week - I also have 2 apideas with contemporaries of that queen. My third hive should have the new queen emerging in the next couple of days - I have an apidea with a QC from there, so again, I have hedged my bets.

Finally, this hive. I decided to tear down the QCs since there are loads of eggs - she's really prolific. I also gave a super to make sure they couldn't complain about room. I'll check again in a few days - if they start with the QCs again, I'll take HRH out as an AS and reunite in a few weeks when they're hopelessly queenless.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Finally, this hive. I decided to tear down the QCs since there are loads of eggs - she's really prolific. I also gave a super to make sure they couldn't complain about room. I'll check again in a few days.

Better make it no more than 3 or 4 or your queen won't be there.
If you tear down swarm cells they make more and swarm before they are capped.

 

[itma]

Make a small nuc with your queen,leave best queen cell in parent hive

Better make it no more than 3 or 4 or your queen won't be there.
If you tear down swarm cells they make more and swarm before they are capped.

Adding a super as "more room" only VERY rarely works to flip them out of 'swarm mode'. Particularly if it isn't already drawn ...
It ain't about removing the conditions that might cause swarming.
Curing swarm fever takes much more than that.
Once they have it in their collective mind, they hang onto that idea very tightly.

Tearing down QCs really doesn't help. It is just as Erica says.

Where does advice to do these things come from?

 

[Tomo]

Have a really good read of this. I use it as my bible.

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

 

[bpmurray]

Where does advice to do these things come from?

Probably desperation coupled with a lack of time. And, of course, I suppose I'm looking for some easy way to get this hive back under control, but now it seems like I don't have much choice but to do it the right way & do an AS. I appreciate that if they want to swarm they will. The WBKA document is excellent, but I think I was already aware that they want to swarm.

I now have to find HRH - I'll have time Saturday morning, so I hope I can find her in the 2-3 hours I'll have to spare. I just might just filter them through an excluder - I believe that's a legitimate way to find her. She's unmarked and probably unclipped so I just hope she hasn't slimmed down in anticipation of swarming. I've had her almost a year and I've never seen her - she has an incredible ability to hide!

When I find her, I'll put her in a nuc - what should she have with her? A frame of stores and a frame of brood and some drawn comb? I presume the nuc will have to be fed. Or is the Demaree method something that might work?

 

[GlenJ]

Did you read the bit that said "don't panic"? Demaree no good, it's way past the pre-emptive stage. Don't need to find the Queen for the first stage of an AS, just move the original more than 3 feet away and put a new home in the old place for the flying bees (the ones driving the swarm impulse) to go back to with a frame of brood and a frame of stores in it. Check out Wally Shaw's publication, available on the WBKA website. http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf

 

[Mrs Shoot]

Had one hive wih one QC in the middle of a frame, queen hadn't been laying well for quite a while so though supersedure and left them to it.
No they swarmed ....but only as far as the side of their hive. Now in a nuc and she's laying a lot better.

 

[Finman]

.
Murray, you try to fight against good advices. What heck a prolific layer make in a nuc, when you do not have other laying queens. And queen in a nuc does not polish swarming fever off from bees.

You must make an AS, otherwise you do not get swarming fever off. And swarm goes when it gets virgin.

Full AS?.... There is no partial or half AS.

 

[B+.]

There's room in the brood box and I have another broodbox on top as a kind of super (I want drawn comb for next year).

If the box you added was foundation (to provide comb for next year), did you rearrange the frames so the queen recognises the additional space as part of the colony?
If so, try moving a couple of the outer frames up into the upper box. The colony will recognise that they have more space and quickly occupy the other frames.

 

[bpmurray]

Did you read the bit that said "don't panic"? Demaree no good, it's way past the pre-emptive stage. Don't need to find the Queen for the first stage of an AS, just move the original more than 3 feet away and put a new home in the old place for the flying bees (the ones driving the swarm impulse) to go back to with a frame of brood and a frame of stores in it. Check out Wally Shaw's publication, available on the WBKA website. http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdf

Ha-ha - I think that's very close to the truth. The past few weeks have been panic after panic, even though I'm usually very pragmatic about everything else. And thank you for the link - that's an excellent book. The WBKA seem to have some great documents.

Actually, thanks to everyone for the advice - it'll be an AS Saturday morning, assuming they wait that long.

Should I allow the original to grow a new queen or force it to go hopelessly queenless to make uniting easier?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I now have to find HRH -and I've never seen her - she has an incredible ability to hide!

bp
you have no need to find her on Saturday.
Move your hive a few feet away
Put your new box on the old site.
Take out a frame of brood with eggs shake all the bees off, make sure there is no QC then put it in the middle of your empty new brood box.
Replace the frame in your Q+ box (at one end) and close up, they will lose the swarming urge because they have no foraging bees and all the QCs will be destroyed.
9/10 days later go back to your parent colony and find the queen....much easier now as the box has fewer bees.
Back to the AS, remove all the emergency QCs they have made (you have just the one frame to check) and pop their old queen back.
She will start laying and all will be well.
The parent colony will start emergency cells but you can leave them to it as well.
Jobe done

 

[Tremyfro]

bp
you have no need to find her on Saturday.
Move your hive a few feet away
Put your new box on the old site.
Take out a frame of brood with eggs shake all the bees off, make sure there is no QC then put it in the middle of your empty new brood box.
Replace the frame in your Q+ box (at one end) and close up, they will lose the swarming urge because they have no foraging bees and all the QCs will be destroyed.
9/10 days later go back to your parent colony and find the queen....much easier now as the box has fewer bees.
Back to the AS, remove all the emergency QCs they have made (you have just the one frame to check) and pop their old queen back.
She will start laying and all will be well.
The parent colony will start emergency cells but you can leave them to it as well.
Jobe done

You make it sound so easy Erica.....can you move closer to me so you can be my mentor? So far I haven't had to do this but ...if I had to...I would follow this way of doing it. Just one question.....with the parent colony...you say...leave them to it....as in raising a new queen from the emergency cells? What if you don't want increase....can you take down all emergency cells and recombine above the new brood box on the original site?