Combining Hives using Newspaper. Lots of fighting and dead bees

[tombo]

Tried a combine 2 days ago with a Queenless into Queen right.

Queenless on top separated by newspaper, stuck a Queen excluder between just in case.

Checked today and there are a lot of dead bees outside, Clearly some fighting has been going on. Quick check of the newspaper and it has holes through it. Looks like they didn't want to mix.

Probably shouldn't have but I've removed the Queenless off, I don't want to risk my Queen dying before winter comes through. I've spotted her quickly, she's alive and well.

I'm probably going to let the Queenless die off, They were a caught swarm and very aggressive so it's no big loss but in future what should I have done different?

The Queenless colony were in that state for a good 3 weeks, I thought they would be buzzing to get a new Queen.

 

[enrico]

A bit late in the season in case you did lose the queen but apart from that you did nothing wrong. I would have left them having got that far.

 

[tombo]

Yeah I should have but I was fairly concerned for the queen, I only have 1 Hive now the swarm hive is lost. If I lost her it would be end of.

Swarm hive is nuts anyway, shame they have to die but they are a nightmare to deal with

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

just shake them out a few yards away from the other hive.

 

[tombo]

just shake them out a few yards away from the other hive.

For what purpose, sorry?

To let them die or hope they go in?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

they will eventually beg their way in to the other hive

 

[Swarm]

Tried a combine 2 days ago with a Queenless into Queen right.

Queenless on top separated by newspaper, stuck a Queen excluder between just in case.

Checked today and there are a lot of dead bees outside, Clearly some fighting has been going on. Quick check of the newspaper and it has holes through it. Looks like they didn't want to mix.

Probably shouldn't have but I've removed the Queenless off, I don't want to risk my Queen dying before winter comes through. I've spotted her quickly, she's alive and well.

I'm probably going to let the Queenless die off, They were a caught swarm and very aggressive so it's no big loss but in future what should I have done different?

The Queenless colony were in that state for a good 3 weeks, I thought they would be buzzing to get a new Queen.

How did they compare in size? Unless the queenless colony was markedly smaller, I wouldn't consider any sort of unite. It's not unusual for a queen to be compromised due to a sudden influx of bees, it can happen with direct unites and it can happen with shake outs. A friend of mine lost an expensive new queen last Autumn by shaking out a nearby queenless colony, most annoying but at least he had twenty odd other colonies so not the end of the world.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In your situation I would have had the queen on top.

 

[Antipodes]

Tried a combine 2 days ago with a Queenless into Queen right.

Queenless on top separated by newspaper, stuck a Queen excluder between just in case.

Checked today and there are a lot of dead bees outside, Clearly some fighting has been going on. Quick check of the newspaper and it has holes through it. Looks like they didn't want to mix.

Probably shouldn't have but I've removed the Queenless off, I don't want to risk my Queen dying before winter comes through. I've spotted her quickly, she's alive and well.

I'm probably going to let the Queenless die off, They were a caught swarm and very aggressive so it's no big loss but in future what should I have done different?

The Queenless colony were in that state for a good 3 weeks, I thought they would be buzzing to get a new Queen.

There are potentially other options. One might be to use a screen board between them for a while.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I don't understand the insistence that the Q- colony goes on top of the paper. Many threads here
suggest that on top is the way. I do have to disagree. With the Q- on top, those bees go down through the Q+ colony.
Apt to cause an issue...as related in this thread. With the Q+ colony on the paper, that colony is isolated until the colonies unite.
I unite hundreds of colonies (mating nucs) this way every year. I like my queen isolated above, away from the ruckus at the entrance.
Here are some mating nucs that were united and moved to the wintering apiary. We wrapped them today and they are in wonderful shape.

 

[ericbeaumont]

let them die or hope they go in?

They will go in.

Once you've shaken them out on a mild day remove from the apiary that hive or nuc box. Before you shake, smoke them to get them to load up on honey. When a homeless bee arrives at the Q+ hive it will beg entrance; if it brings a gift of honey the guard bees will permit entry.

 

[ericbeaumont]

separated by newspaper

Single broadsheet or two tabloid overlapping?

 

[Penninetrader]

They will go in.

Once you've shaken them out on a mild day remove from the apiary that hive or nuc box. Before you shake, smoke them to get them to load up on honey. When a homeless bee arrives at the Q+ hive it will beg entrance; if it brings a gift of honey the guard bees will permit entry.

I had not realised smoking makes them load up on honey

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't understand the insistence that the Q- colony goes on top of the paper. Many threads here
suggest that on top is the way. I do have to disagree

I base my decision on the strength of the queen right colony and the temperament of the colony being united. If the queen right colony is small she goes on top. In this case the hot colony was the queenless one and I much prefer they are not rushing through the queen right colony. Normally I put whichever is most convenient on top.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I had not realised smoking makes them load up on honey

it doesn't

 

[tombo]

Q+ colony was strongest.

Q- was weakest and went on top with 2 sheets newspaper and a queen excluder between just in case I missed a Queen.

Paper was eaten through within a day. Definitely loads of fighting a dead bees. Queen is ok. I'll let them do what they want and just let them die if that's the way of it. It looks like they superceded and probably swarmed at some point with a new Queen when the old one died.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It looks like they superceded and probably swarmed at some point with a new Queen when the old one died.

that makes no sense

 

[Macbear]

Single broadsheet or two tabloid overlapping?

Does it matter? With the overlapping tabloids you will have some areas of single thickness. Also unless the overlap is very tightly stretched bees will crawl through any gap they can. Some folks also like to perforate a few holes in the newspaper a few little stabs with a spike or a pointed knife to encourage chewing to enlarge the holes. What isn't good is to have paper flapping outside.
An advantage of uniting this way in warmer weather is the chance to clean residual newspaper trapped between the boxes. Maybe I'm being fussy...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does it matter?

Of course it does - I wouldn't use the majority of modern tabloids as toilet paper, I'm sure that the vile poison most of them contain would also affect the bees

What isn't good is to have paper flapping outside.

why?

 

[Macbear]

I agree about noxious content, but not exclusively tabloids.
Flapping paper - horrible when soggy and wet or dry will eventually become deposited elsewhere. Far better to control that and either add it to the compost bin or use as a firelighter. I also like my hives to look reasonably presentable otherwise would it be a poor advertisement to anybody who might see them and be thinking of taking up keeping bees? Further, without being obsessive, if my hives are kempt it gives me a good feeling.