Combining a very aggressive hive

[Bevbee]

One of my three hives has been extremely aggressive this year. (It wasn't last year - she was a new queen and she was calm ). This year they have been following ( on one occasion 150 m) and stinging people that are 40 + feet from the hives. By July inspecting was almost impossible as they started to sting as soon as the hive was opened. It became difficult to inspect the other two hives as visitors from the badly behaved hive would pop over immediately to ping even when the agreessive have had not been disturbed . While deciding what to do they swarmed.

In that hive the new queen , who emerged from the swarm cell they left, is now laying well , but seems to have inherited the mother's uber defensive genes. The young bees are now firing up to become as aggressive as the older ones that left. The apiary is in my garden and frankly I don't want another year like this - it's no fun and beekeeping is a hobby for me and not an endurance test.

This is what I intend to do starting next week (10/8/20)

1/ remove supers
2/ Find and kill the queen
3/ wait 4/5 days and remove QCs
4/ combine with my weakest colony ( using newspaper)
5/ Thyrol treatment.

For step 2/ I am thinking that I should move the hive to a few feet away to minimise the discomfort to me caused by the older flying bees. Should I put up a hive for the flyers coming " home" or should I let them beg entrance into my other hives ( they are all quite close together )?
If I give the flyers a nuc to come back to is there still time to give them a frame of eggs ( from a nice hive ) to grow a queen to survive Winter ?

Please advise me if the 5 steps make sense to stop the aggression and specifically how I should do step 2 as well as possible.

Thank you

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

One of my three hives has been extremely aggressive this year. (It wasn't last year - she was a new queen and she was calm ). This year they have been following ( on one occasion 150 m) and stinging people that are 40 + feet from the hives. By July inspecting was almost impossible as they started to sting as soon as the hive was opened. It became difficult to inspect the other two hives as visitors from the badly behaved hive would pop over immediately to ping even when the agreessive have had not been disturbed . While deciding what to do they swarmed.

In that hive the new queen , who emerged from the swarm cell they left, is now laying well , but seems to have inherited the mother's uber defensive genes. The young bees are now firing up to become as aggressive as the older ones that left. The apiary is in my garden and frankly I don't want another year like this - it's no fun and beekeeping is a hobby for me and not an endurance test.

This is what I intend to do starting next week (10/8/20)

1/ remove supers
2/ Find and kill the queen
3/ wait 4/5 days and remove QCs
4/ combine with my weakest colony ( using newspaper)
5/ Thyrol treatment.

For step 2/ I am thinking that I should move the hive to a few feet away to minimise the discomfort to me caused by the older flying bees. Should I put up a hive for the flyers coming " home" or should I let them beg entrance into my other hives ( they are all quite close together )?
If I give the flyers a nuc to come back to is there still time to give them a frame of eggs ( from a nice hive ) to grow a queen to survive Winter ?

Please advise me if the 5 steps make sense to stop the aggression and specifically how I should do step 2 as well as possible.

Thank you

Plan is fine, although I wouldn't bothr with step 3. I tend to unite immediately on dispatching the old queen.
As regards step 2, you could move the hive and leave the supers for the returning fliers, wait an hour for the main hive foragers to leave, do the deed with the queen then move the main hive back to the original position, replacing the supers.
For the unite, I would prepare the now queenless hive late afternoon my putting a few sheets of newspaper over the supers, held down with a queen excluder, then move over the Q+ colony last thing in the evening.

 

[Bevbee]

Plan is fine, although I wouldn't bothr with step 3. I tend to unite immediately on dispatching the old queen.
As regards step 2, you could move the hive and leave the supers for the returning fliers, wait an hour for the main hive foragers to leave, do the deed with the queen then move the main hive back to the original position, replacing the supers.
For the unite, I would prepare the now queenless hive late afternoon my putting a few sheets of newspaper over the supers, held down with a queen excluder, then move over the Q+ colony last thing in the evening.

Thank you - that makes sense .

I love your footer re beekeeping - it's so true

 

[drex]

Finding the queen. You have the right idea to bleed off the flyers. You do not say how many boxes she has access to. Keep her confined to one, then you know she is definitely in that box.
Do not look through every frame, go straight for where she is most likely to be, the brood nest. As a frame is inspected, put it in a spare box and leave a gap between frames as they are inspected. Will make life easier if you have to through twice

 

[Bevbee]

Finding the queen. You have the right idea to bleed off the flyers. You do not say how many boxes she has access to. Keep her confined to one, then you know she is definitely in that box.
Do not look through every frame, go straight for where she is most likely to be, the brood nest. As a frame is inspected, put it in a spare box and leave a gap between frames as they are inspected. Will make life easier if you have to through twice

Thank you. She is in a single brood box and she is marked . Hopefully I can find her before it all gets too messy

 

[paulday500]

I am having to do exactly the same. However I will treat for varroa before uniting. That way the united colony will be disrupted less.

 

[Bevbee]

I am having to do exactly the same. However I will treat for varroa before uniting. That way the united colony

I am having to do exactly the same. However I will treat for varroa before uniting. That way the united colony will be disrupted less.

I did think of this as one of my hives has quite a nasty infestation and I will be applying apiguard as soon as it arrives ( should have been Thursday so hopefully today ) . I know that all hives should be treated at the same time but thought that a week overlap ( appiguard takes two weeks ) would be sufficient ?

One reason I thought uniting first ( before varroa treatment ) would be preferable was the lack of stores in the aggressive hives brood box. I thought that that two weeks during treatment with no/ minimal stores would be a problem ? Do you have a solution to this ? I suppose I could place a couple of full honey frames in the BB rather than spinning them ? Also there is still a nectar flow at the moment and the number of flying bees is increasing so perhaps I am worrying for nothing ?

One other reason for dispatching and the queen sooner rather than later is pure cowardice. The older these bees get the more likely they are to develop into the full on nasties the previous queen produced. My husband got stung twice yesterday cutting the grass about 4m away from them ( not in the flight path) . He stomped into the kitchen and offered to squish her himself . They have such a sensitive defence gene that the Longer I delay the harder it will be to do the deed without damage to us .

Obviously I want to do whatever is best for the health of the whole apiary. I only have four hives ( three once I unite ) .so asking for advise / opinions on

1/Should I use apiguard first ( I will just wear more layers when dealing with the aggressive girls) and if so do i need to worry about their lack of stores once I have removed the supers ?

Sorry for all the detail - I actually find that framing the questions on here helps me get it straight in my mind.

 

[Bevbee]

I did think of this as one of my hives has quite a nasty infestation and I will be applying apiguard as soon as it arrives ( should have been Thursday so hopefully today ) . I know that all hives should be treated at the same time but thought that a week overlap ( appiguard takes two weeks ) would be sufficient ?

One reason I thought uniting first ( before varroa treatment ) would be preferable was the lack of stores in the aggressive hives brood box. I thought that that two weeks during treatment with no/ minimal stores would be a problem ? Do you have a solution to this ? I suppose I could place a couple of full honey frames in the BB rather than spinning them ? Also there is still a nectar flow at the moment and the number of flying bees is increasing so perhaps I am worrying for nothing ?

One other reason for dispatching and the queen sooner rather than later is pure cowardice. The older these bees get the more likely they are to develop into the full on nasties the previous queen produced. My husband got stung twice yesterday cutting the grass about 4m away from them ( not in the flight path) . He stomped into the kitchen and offered to squish her himself . They have such a sensitive defence gene that the Longer I delay the harder it will be to do the deed without damage to us .

Obviously I want to do whatever is best for the health of the whole apiary. I only have four hives ( three once I unite ) .so asking for advise / opinions on

1/Should I use apiguard first ( I will just wear more layers when dealing with the aggressive girls) and if so do i need to worry about their lack of stores once I have removed the supers ?

Sorry for all the detail - I actually find that framing the questions on here helps me get it straight in my mind.

 

[drex]

I use two trays in succession, each on for two weeks.
Best not to feed syrup while treating as the syrup is said to distract them from the apiguard.
I prefer to do all my colonies at the same time as it makes sense.
I usually unite then treat as it saves on amount of Apiguard used. A unite and rearrangement of frames only need take 3-4 days.

 

[madasafish]

If I were involved I would:
1 Kill the horrible queen asap. That takes her out of any future bees being made through egg laying.
2. Unite the next day after 1. That reduces chances of QCs - the hive may very well still be horrible.. but with a new queen from the other hive, they should gradually improve - This may take 6 weeks till all existing workers are replaced.
3. Treat two weeks after uniting...fewer horrible bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

2. Unite the next day after 1. That reduces chances of QCs

I would unite immediately - even less chance of QCs

 

[Bevbee]

HELP HELP HELP !

Sorry everyone but it has all gone horribly wrong.

Following all the excellently advice I was given on this forum I had a plan.

1/ On Sunday ( 9/8) I put a clearing board under three of the four supers on the aggressive hive ( despite being gentile and speedy I received half a dozen stings through my latex gloves and was followed for quarter of a mile- which assured me that I was doing the right thing in killing this queen )

2/ today ( Tuesday 11/8) I moved the hive about 15 metres left it an hour before opening up and looking for the queen. There was quite a lot of pinging and my husband ( who I recruited to help lift )got numerous stings on his thick leather gloves but it was all manageable.

3/ I spotted the queen and quickly scooped her up in a cage ( one of those hinged ones ) Sorry to say I am quite squeamish so intended to put her in the freezer . My husband said "pass it here " so I did automatically as I was rearranging the frames in the brood box to close up .THEN HE OPENED THE QUEEN CAGE AND SHE FLEW OFF BUT HE DOESNT KNOW WHERE !!!!

4/ I know this sounds funny but I am now in tears . I had put the first half doz frames in a nuc box and the last remaining super was sat on the hive roof next to the brood box , with the clearer board on top. I have no idea which if any, of these she flew to . I have searched through the brood box with 5 frames,the nuc with 6 and the super and can't find her. There are stressed angry bees everywhere - for once I don't blame them for being aggressive. For once they have good reason .

Can anyone tell me what I should do please ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would put a super on a floor where the hive was. Look tomorrow. She might be there. Leave the original box where it is.

 

[Amari]

HELP HELP HELP !

Sorry everyone but it has all gone horribly wrong.

4/ I know this sounds funny but I am now in tears .

Can anyone tell me what I should do please ?

We are all waiting for the next bulletin!

I have about 10 hives and every season I have a disaster with at least one of them. Usually it's my blunder eg forgetting to replace the QX after an inspection or finding sheets of brood in the top super even though the QX is in the right place. Less frequently it's due to the bees failing to read the textbook.

So don't let your disaster put you off. There will be more disasters to come, it's all part of beekeeping!

You mention latex gloves. There is nothing worse than an aggressive hive. For this I always wear full PPE including nasty v. thick plastic gloves with long gauntlets, long sleeved clothing, maybe two layers. Every beekeeper is reluctant to kill an angry hive but I've just watched an excellent video by Stuart Spinks (Google), a Norfolk bee farmer and tutor, on how to use ethyl acetate. Looks better than the more customary petrol or soapy water.

 

[drex]

It's the one time I wear my old leather gauntlets, and thank heavens for my Old castle farm ventilated suit. Yet to be stung through it.

 

[Swarm]

I was wondering if husband has recovered yet?





You must have made him suffer, surely?

 

[enrico]

I have only just read this thread. Please don't worry. I have heaps of experience yet earlier this year I did exactly what you did. Nasty hive, put queen in queen clip and she escaped. Durrr!
I had already combined and was paranoid the nasty queen would find her way back. She didn't and they are now a beautiful hive.
Chin up and let us know what happened!
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/it-didnt-end-up-as-i-intended.46431/The above was my thread!!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think these tales of the queen killing clips duly qualifies that awful bit of kit (whether metal or plastic) entry into the list of "useless and pointless beekeeping kit that that we all buy, instantly regret and dump in the dustiest bit of the shed"

 

[enrico]

Oh beautiful hindsight

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh beautiful hindsight

Good stuff though
A lot of my beekeeping practices are modified by hindsight. Thankfully most of it somebody else's