Comb management question

[drstitson]

"The super went on when we had superb weather at end of March, there have also been some good days since. Regardless of current cold weather, I would have expected SOME signs of activity in the super."

why - little nectar incoming = no activity in super.

many may have had stores put in supers in march only to find them all consumed in april.

 

[Poly Hive]

As you are finding, if bees do not need space they ignore it and do their best to keep the brood warm.

March was three weeks in the very wet past, not to mention cold. I would have taken the super off myself.

PH

 

[DanBee]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterBK
Also the house bees on the other side may even rear emergency queen cells as less Q pheromone is reaching them.



Yes, I've seen this. House bees sensing no footprint pheromone on the brood they're attending to presumably arent so inhibited from making q cells.

In which case the colony & brood nest were probably far too small for the introduction of the foundation! Beekeeper error

 

[mbc]

In which case the colony & brood nest were probably far too small for the introduction of the foundation! Beekeeper error

Or alternatively theres no flow and the sensible bees dont want to expand their brood nest but forget to tell the house bees ont'other side of divide/

 

[Poly Hive]

Pretty much a no from me on that comment regarding flow. The bees will often expand the broodnest even in pretty dire conditions.

Some of mine proved that again today despite the last week of no income.

PH

 

[mbc]

Pretty much a no from me on that comment regarding flow. The bees will often expand the broodnest even in pretty dire conditions.

Some of mine proved that again today despite the last week of no income.

PH

This is what happens when you're reduced to purchasing foreign queens

 

[Poly Hive]

Low blow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you have all your breeding stock destroyed in a fire by vandals then see what avenues are left open.

Just for the record I am rather pleased with how my bees are coping with the serious weather. They are being judicious with their activities, a quality not all appear to emulate.

PH

 

[mbc]

They are being judicious with their activities, a quality not all appear to emulate.

PH

Point taken PH, but there was no offence intended.

 

[ksjs]

why - little nectar incoming = no activity in super.
many may have had stores put in supers in march only to find them all consumed in april.

Can't argue with that but I still would have expected signs of life up there, naive expectation I guess.

I do wonder if it's worth removing the QE and seeing if that encourages them to draw the super. Or maybe I'm flogging a dead horse and it's simply too cold. Will be interesting to see if they've drawn their 2 fresh frames located in the BB. If that's the case then this would suggest that removing the QE could be worthwhile...

 

[ksjs]

As you are finding, if bees do not need space they ignore it and do their best to keep the brood warm.

March was three weeks in the very wet past, not to mention cold. I would have taken the super off myself.

PH

I have very little experience to go on but, honestly, they were so full up and concentrated in the last 2 inspections that having the super on seems reasonable. Mind you, maybe if I'd removed stores earlier and introduced fresh frames in the BB then I would / could have removed the super without worrying about them having no space.

 

[DanBee]

Or alternatively theres no flow and the sensible bees dont want to expand their brood nest but forget to tell the house bees ont'other side of divide/

This is what happens when you're reduced to purchasing foreign queens

Now you're just talking rubbish.

 

[Meg]

Bees often ignore a super of foundation even in good weather. I find it helps to get a super frame or two drawn out in the brood box (just swap one frame out at a time) that I can then put in the super. This encourages them up and they then get on with it.

Meg

 

[mbc]

Now you're just talking rubbish.

Context Danbee. Are we defensive because we were taught a lesson about footprint pheromone ?

 

[DanBee]

Context Danbee. Are we defensive because we were taught a lesson about footprint pheromone ?

The context was that we were discussing the merits of putting foundation in the middle of the broodnest in a small colony during poor weather; the suggestion that this would cause queen raising on the far side due to lack of queen substance was what I disagreed with, and that if this was indeed the case then the management decisions were poor.

The suggestion of footprint pheromone (I presume you mean the queen's here?) came from you alone, based upon your observation. That's not a lot to go on I'm afraid Have you any references to this behaviour that quantifies the lack of footprint odour with, say, an interruption in the normal dissemination of queen substance?

If you think it's a valid management technique, or indeed queen raising technique, fine, do it your way, but I think you're extrapolating too much from one observation

 

[mbc]

The context was you questioning this:
Originally Posted by masterBK
Also the house bees on the other side may even rear emergency queen cells as less Q pheromone is reaching them.

Really...?

And IMO and experience this statement by masterbk is entirely reasonable, have you never seen queen cells started on brood lifted over a qx ( again probably initiated by the lack of queen footprint pheromone to inhibit queen cell production ). A sheet of foundation in the middle of a hive can act in a simular manner to a qx in being a barrier to the queens movement. As for a reference, no I havent got a specific one in mind but if you research any of the common queen right queen rearing methods, I believe they rely on this phenomenon.
As to the rest of my "rubbish", I suppose you have never experienced native bees ceasing laying where a more prolific variety of queen would continue laying at a fast rate despite a dearth either ?
Nowhere do I suggest any of this is a "valid technique" and if I've read him/her right neither did masterbk.

 

[DanBee]

mbc - wind your neck in, you sound like you're looking for an argument. Head over to the 'Environmental' section if that's your preference

You have not explained why you feel that it is specifically queen footprint pheromone that is responsible for queen (cell) raising, rather than general lack of queen substance. I still think you are extrapolating too far based upon limited observation and speculation as to the cause. I do not disagree that a significant barrier (nor indeed any restriction of the circulation of queen substance) will prompt queen raising on the far side, and I am more than conversant with queen raising methods that utilise this. The original point was that this was the wrong time and wrong size of colony to be introducing such a barrier into the brood nest.

I also don't know why this is a native vs. non-native argument. Only you seem to be pursing that line. For your information, in the recent rainy weather, I have seen all of my locally-adapted mongrels cease laying as they hunker down against the weather. It is not a behavioural trait specific to Amm, and any ongoing selection based upon wintering success will highlight this.

 

[mbc]

The context was that we were discussing the merits of putting foundation in the middle of the broodnest in a small colony during poor weather; the suggestion that this would cause queen raising on the far side due to lack of queen substance was what I disagreed with, and that if this was indeed the case then the management decisions were poor.

mbc - wind your neck in, you sound like you're looking for an argument.

I do not disagree that a significant barrier (nor indeed any restriction of the circulation of queen substance) will prompt queen raising on the far side, and I am more than conversant with queen raising methods that utilise this. The original point was that this was the wrong time and wrong size of colony to be introducing such a barrier into the brood nest.

Contradictory nonsense IMO
I still dont know what you were originally questioning or why you are pursuing the argument, wind your own neck in, have a smiley

 

[Poly Hive]

I would suggest politely that reading through the thread might answer some questions.

PH

 

[DanBee]

Contradictory nonsense IMO
I still dont know what you were originally questioning or why you are pursuing the argument, wind your own neck in, have a smiley

Oh FFS. Putting a sheet of foundation in the middle of a small broodnest in this weather will more than likely result in some of the brood being neglected on whatever the cluster decides is "the far side" as they retreat to conserve warmth one side of the barrier. The suggestion that suddenly one half of a small cluster declares independence and sets about queen raising is far less likely. These are honeybees, remember, not the People's Front of Judea.

I thank you for your generous donation of a smiley, and return the gift threefold

 

[drstitson]

all my queens are called Judith!