Comb management question

[ksjs]

Just removed 2 frames of stores from BB to allow more room for laying. Before this frames were as follows (I have frames parallel to entrance - warm way if I remember correctly): 1-7 brood, 8-11 stores. Frame 1 is at the entrance and 11 at the back of the hive.

I removed frames 8 and 9 and replaced these with foundation. On reflection should I have actually only replaced frame 9 with foundation, pushed brood frames towards back such that they occupied the space previously taken up by frames 2-8 and then added foundation to the newly created space at front of hive? This would have given a fresh frame of foundation either side of the brood nest rather than 2 at one side.

 

[Davelin]

Don't think it is critical either way. They may draw it a bit quicker if one is at the front, but if it's anything like here it's so bloomin' cold they are not drawing any foundation anyway.

 

[masterBK]

If you place frames of foundation on the flanks of the brood nest the bees are very likely to build excess drone comb on them. If you put it in the middle of the brood nest then this splits the brood nest and some queens treat it like a barrier and won't lay on the other side of it. Also the house bees on the other side may even rear emergency queen cells as less Q pheromone is reaching them. The answer is to run the colony on a double brood with the frames of foundation in the top box and then they will draw them corner to corner without popholes or too much drone comb (in a bottom brood chamber the workers tend to construct passage ways through it especially if frames running warm way). Swarms are also good at drawing foundation especially during a flow or if you feed them.
Beekeepers with several hives don't mess around with the odd frame of foundation in a hive but get lots drawn at the same time by the colonies that are good at doing it (some are just useless at building comb from foundation!). A supply of spare clean drawn comb is an asset.

 

[Travelator]

If adding a single frame of foundation to an existing brood nest, I would:

- Remove a frame as appropriate (might be removing a frame of stores, eggs to use as a test frame, or sealed brood to give another colony a boost).

- Find the pollen barrier (ie a frame containing lots of pollen at the edge of the brood nest)

- Put the frame of foundation between the pollen barrier and the brood nest

 

[DanBee]

Also the house bees on the other side may even rear emergency queen cells as less Q pheromone is reaching them.

Really...?

 

[drstitson]

read PH's thread on working the brood.

you should have put one frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest.

 

[Erichalfbee]

read PH's thread on working the brood.

you should have put one frame of foundation in the middle of the brood nest.

I did this last autumn on two hives to get more winter bees.
They drew and laid them up straight away.

 

[drstitson]

"They drew and laid them up straight away."

less likely in current weather hence my suggestion of only adding one. OP may well be feeding like many of us.



AFAIK adding one late is good way to get a frame of near perfect comb (ie without drone brood etc).

 

[Erichalfbee]

OK, correction.
One frame in each of two hives.
And yes, in this weather it's asking a bit much.

 

[ksjs]

The answer is to run the colony on a double brood with the frames of foundation in the top box and then they will draw them corner to corner without popholes or too much drone comb (in a bottom brood chamber the workers tend to construct passage ways through it especially if frames running warm way).

Interesting, they did OK last year - drew 6 frames no problem after I got them as a nuc. Also, they're not touching the super (fresh foundation) so maybe just no need yet or it's too cold for them to work wax.

 

[ksjs]

"They drew and laid them up straight away."

less likely in current weather hence my suggestion of only adding one. OP may well be feeding like many of us.

No, the opposite: I just took 2 frames of stores away as they have virtually no space, haven't been touching their stores (there were 4 frames, there's now 2) and refuse to do anything in a new super.

Depending on how things look this week if / when I open the hive, I may move one of the frames into middle of nest but will probably do some reading round first; it feels a bit wrong.

 

[Poly Hive]

Given the weather I would leave them flanking the brood nest.

It IS cold. Not to mention wet.

However if it were more normal temps then yes put one in the middle and please don't just take my word for it, try it and see. If it fails ask yourself why?

Answers could be not enough bees, too cold, no income, and or general refusniks. Which you do get oddly enough.

In general though it works perfectly despite the doom sayers...

PH

 

[BeeNice]

I see you have one hive, if you have a super on and the bees are not drawing the comb out and you are running out of bee laying space you can try removing the QE and have them on Brood and half, sometimes the bees don't like drawing comb above the QE, if you don't fancy that add another BBox and don't have a super on until they start to draw out the comb. If I start to run out of space in the BB I bruise the honey in the store and often the bees will take the honey up. Now the problem with that is that you don't have drawn super comb to store the honey. I think I would add a BB and take off the super and leave the bees to it until the weather changes and they may build up very quickly with space. The second year is the time that you really start to learn.
regards
Steven

 

[BeeNice]

I just took 2 frames of stores away as they have virtually no space, haven't been touching their stores
If the stores are old, the bees sometimes don't touch it, hence the bruising of the comb.

 

[Poly Hive]

Not to mention in a cold deluge the bees are not in the super?

Not being funny but what a suprise!

Sensible creatures are keeping cosy down below.

PH

 

[Finman]

.
With that game there is no meaning. If you really want something, use 2 broods.
A frame here or there, no meaning.

 

[Poly Hive]

In Finland no doubt you are quite right and I would myself not comment on activities there.

Here though it is very valid.

PH

 

[ksjs]

I see you have one hive, if you have a super on and the bees are not drawing the comb out and you are running out of bee laying space you can try removing the QE and have them on Brood and half, sometimes the bees don't like drawing comb above the QE, if you don't fancy that add another BBox and don't have a super on until they start to draw out the comb. If I start to run out of space in the BB I bruise the honey in the store and often the bees will take the honey up. Now the problem with that is that you don't have drawn super comb to store the honey. I think I would add a BB and take off the super and leave the bees to it until the weather changes and they may build up very quickly with space. The second year is the time that you really start to learn.
regards
Steven

Good post, cheers. Will keep all in mind when I have a look this week. Was really hoping for honey this year, kind of feels like it might be a second 'enabling' year... Getting frame drawn, making increase etc.

 

[ksjs]

Not to mention in a cold deluge the bees are not in the super?
PH

The super went on when we had superb weather at end of March, there have also been some good days since. Regardless of current cold weather, I would have expected SOME signs of activity in the super.

 

[mbc]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterBK
Also the house bees on the other side may even rear emergency queen cells as less Q pheromone is reaching them.

Really...?

Yes, I've seen this. House bees sensing no footprint pheromone on the brood they're attending to presumably arent so inhibited from making q cells.