Collected Swarm Absconded from New Hive!

[Scubi]

First post on the forum so "hi" to everybody

I noticed what I thought were probably a couple of QC's during my inspection at the weekend and having chatted with a beekeeping friend of mine, decided that carrying out an AS might be a good idea.
I had a 14x12 brood chamber that I was going to transfer them into anyway and so thought I could use it to carry out the AS.
Due to my poor planning, by the time I set up the donor hive it was getting cold so I left it for the next day. However, it rained constantly all day Monday so left it.
Typically, this afternoon I get a call telling me they have already swarmed but luckily, had ended up not to far and somewhere fairly easily accessible. The swarm seemed to be in two parts, the main one low down under a metal frame and the other smaller one in a 8" plastic flower pot left on its side about 18" from he main cluster.
I called my friend but unfortunately he could not get away from work to help so told me what to do (this would be my first swarm collection).
Well, my son and I managed to retrieve the majority of the bees into a cardboard box. We couldn't see the queen (in either cluster) but felt comfortable that we had collected most of the bees having left them alone to calm down (they seemed happy in the box!)
We transferred them into the new "14x12" and left my son to make up some 1:1 syrup to feed them, while I returned to work. However, by the time he had mixed it he noticed that there wasn't much activity around the hive and when he opened the hive to put on the syrup there were no bees. They had all gone within about 30 minutes although he is sure there was no great swarm like he had seen and heard when they first departed. He looked around the area to see if he could see them but had no luck
On my return home about 2 hours later we looked into the old hive and found it to have about the same number of bees it had when we inspected it at the weekend, so it looks as if possibly they have returned to the original hive but I am not sure if this can happen.

So the questions are:
Can swarms return to their original colony, which I assume still has a queen of its own?
Why would they have left the 14x12" hive, would it be because they didn't have any food for that short time or because I missed collecting the queen, or something else?
Having swarmed already (and assuming they have returned to the original hive), are they likely to swarm again any time soon?
Should I try an AS again as soon as the weather improves (looks like heavy rain tomorrow) or wait it out?

Being still within my first year of beekeeping any advice is greatly appreciated.


S.

 

[snoop]

Was the queen clipped , if they lost her when they swarmed they will return to the hive & wait for the first capped Queencell in your hive to hatch & take off again with the new virgin queen

 

[tonybloke]

the bees probably left the new box because they'd already found somewhere better. a frame of stores from the original hive would have helped keep them there, preferably one that's had brood in it
they won't have gone back
hives look full even after a swarm, remember, loads of new bees hatch each day.
go into original hive, and only leave one cell, or you're liable to get a cast (voice of experience )

 

[MuswellMetro]

Why feed a swarm, they have their bellies full of Honey

I may, and a big MAY feed after three days but not before, it depends on the weather

 

[Rich0909]

I did have a swarm return home last year after boxing them - watched them go, no obvious reason - the queen wasn't clipped and they settled down for the rest of the season after that. Situation was different though as it was the virgin queen part of an AS some weeks later and after she was mated and laying, very hot humid day with thundery showers.
I pin a piece of old punched metal QE over the entrance of the hive for 3-4 days after housing a swarm. We had some sage advice from an experienced beek at the local BBKA meeting a couple of weeks back - I will put something together and post it in the next couple of days in case it is of help to anyone, certainly taught me something but thats not hard....

Rich

 

[Midland Beek]

This is why people clip their queens - think about it. So the obvious question is: Did your bees come with a clipped queen?

You need to open up your bees and try to work out what they are doing. You possibly have sealed queen cells and a queen that can't fly and leave with a swarm because someone has clipped her wings.

Or that swarm had decided on your next door neighbours shed and wasn't going to have its mind changed, even if you stuck them in a brand spanking new beehive.

 

[Tyzack]

Bad luck - but I've had swarms abscond before I've even got them back to the apiary. I thought they were quiet and was disappointed to find the box empty- an old frame may have kept them?

 

[Hebeegeebee]

the bees probably left the new box because they'd already found somewhere better. a frame of stores from the original hive would have helped keep them there, preferably one that's had brood in it
they won't have gone back
hives look full even after a swarm, remember, loads of new bees hatch each day.
go into original hive, and only leave one cell, or you're liable to get a cast (voice of experience )

If you hadn't got the queen they would have left the hive to get back to her. If you HAD got the queen, then a queen excluder under (for a few days) would have kept her in.

It's common to believe that a colony hasn't swarmed, you are not the first. A few days on after your inspection there will be many more bees in the hive.

 

[Scubi]

Thanks for all the replies, lots of useful information to digest

The queen wasn't clipped (it is not something I am keen on doing) so she should have gone with the swarm but she wasn't marked either so it was difficult to spot her, especially as I was in a bit of a panic at the time.

I suppose it is possible that I missed her and left her behind and they then left the new hive to find her. But would they have all gone together as another swarm or would it have been a gradual dispersal? My son is sure there wasn't another swarm a he was watching out. We also checked back at the location where they swarmed to but apart from a couple of dozen bees flying around the site was clear.
I think Tonybloke is correct, it is most probable they had already found a new home.
There is nothing I can do about it now apart from learning from my mistakes.

The next thing is what should I do with the remaining colony in the original hive?
The weather is poor again today so I have refrained from looking in the hive but presently it has one super on with no feed.
I am assuming that there should be a new queen in there and also assume she will deal with any other contenders that emerge, for the time being...is this correct or do I need to do it for her?
Is it a good idea to put some feed on or should I wait a few days more for them to settle?
I would like to get the remaining colony into the 14x12 broad box....is this still a viable option after a swarm and is it worth carrying out an AS to do it?

Sorry about all the questions but this is a bit of a steep learning curve at this moment in time.


S.

 

[MJBee]

Scubi - Despite what has been said swarms do return to their original hive..

I had one this year where a swarm emerged while I was topping up a feeder - marked queen not clipped- It settled in a gorse bush but by the time I got back with my swarm box it had gone. I was surprised at the next inspection to find a full hive and the same marked queen
There was a report posted recently of another swarm returning home so mine wasn't unique.

 

[Scubi]

Scubi - Despite what has been said swarms do return to their original hive..

I had one this year where a swarm emerged while I was topping up a feeder - marked queen not clipped- It settled in a gorse bush but by the time I got back with my swarm box it had gone. I was surprised at the next inspection to find a full hive and the same marked queen
There was a report posted recently of another swarm returning home so mine wasn't unique.

It gets very confusing doesn't it.
OK, so if my swarm has returned where do I stand with the hive?
Are there now two queens and what is the likelihood of one (or both) swarming off again taking half my colony with it (them)?
I am assuming I need to look through the brood and dispose of one of them or will the old queen get kicked out?

yours, confused, S

 

[oliver90owner]

You will not get a definitive response - just previous apparent or real experiences.

You need to ascertain what is happening in the hive. You may find they have actually gone for good; you may possibly find there are no queen cells in the hive (never experienced anything like that, myself); even them preparing to go again. One can never be sure unless you look for yourself ... and know what you are looking for.

There will not be two queens in the hive, for sure, unless they have had sealed queen cells in there for over a week.

When I say 'for sure', that would be assuming there was not a supercedure going on previously - which is unlikely, but possible.

RAB

 

[susbees]

....marking queens makes understanding what the thump the bees are up to a whole lot easier

 

[Scubi]

You need to ascertain what is happening in the hive....
RAB

Love to get in the hive, but the weather yesterday was appalling so I didn't get a chance then. The weather is better today and at this moment in time it is about 13C spitting rain and fairly breezy so I am reluctant to go in right now.
I don't want to have another swarm but I am concerned I will if I don't get in soon enough and take preventative action.
So do I go in now or can it wait until about 4pm tomorrow when the weather look set to calm right down..

What do you think chaps?

 

[Scubi]

Well, continuing on with the saga...
Yesterday I get a call just after mid-day saying the bees had swarmed about an hour before but this time had travelled a little further and ended up in a garden. So I arrive at the persons house about 15 minutes later only to be told they had all flown off.
A little disappointed I when back to work.
On returning home later at about 4pm, I was stopped by a neighbour and told they had again returned to the same spot the had been to earlier.
This time I took my time and followed the advice I was given in my various books and also the posting here and successfully re-homed this swarm in my new hive.
Well, I say successfully, the neighbour knocked on my door this morning to say there are a large number of bees sited at the same spot as before and cold I get rid of then (she was very nice about it though).
I checked it out to find about 500 bees flying and milling around the area, but not as a cluster as such.
My feeling was that there must be some sort of pheromone left as this site, so taking some more advice from a beekeeping friend I washed the area down with some soapy water and plied the area with a much more pungent unnatural smell (a roll-on antiperspirant). This sort of work by keeping the bees off the frame the were interested in but they were still flying around the area in the same sort of numbers.
I have tried to move the frame about 2m (it is quite heavy) but this doesn't seem to have worked as they have followed it along.
My friend told me this could last up to a week and although the neighbour has been very good, obviously she has the right to enjoy here garden.
So is there anyway I can deter the bees from congregating in this area?
There doesn't seem to be much info on the internet with regarding this other than using pest control (normally on US websites) which is not what I am going to do.
If this is going to be an ongoing problem then I think I will need to try and find a better site!

 

[oliver90owner]

OK, you say quote:and successfully re-homed this swarm in my new hive.


What time was this? Unless late in the evening you didn't collect all the bees.

They will cluster at night. Deal with them when they have stopped flying.

 

[keith pierce]

what you are probably witnessing is a mating swarm. A virgin queen goes out on a mating flight and the colony gets so excied that if follows here out of the hive. They then cluster like a swarm but have no queen,as she has continue on out on her mating flight. They soon Realise that they have no queen with them and the cluster become restless and then returns to the main hive. This can happen several times a day over a period of about 6 days while the virgin goes on mating flights.

 

[Compostcritter]

Mine returned also. Caught the swarm rehoused and closed up the entrance for twenty four hours. Unfotunately the brood box floor had a gap in and they trickled out returning to the hive. The weather was bad for a couple of days and then they swarmed again to the tree they had originally swarmed too! Have now hived up again, and are waiting to see if they stay.