Choosing your breeder queen

[jeff33]

I just wanted to run pass the different steps I have in my head to pick a breeding queen out of my stock to raise queens for my own use. However, my timeline seems far too long.

- year 1: pick the best colony based on chosen traits. That would need to be around early August once the season is over and the colony would have already overwintered. The queen will be a minimum of 1 years old by then.

- step 2: raise a few daughters from this colony asap so they can be tested for a full season.

- step 3: if happy with the daughters then use this queen as my breeder queen, she would be 2 years old by now.

As all the daughters would be open mated is it really necessary to go through step 2 as I would probably compare apples and pears?

 

[For want of a better word]

It is a plan
You may need to run this over a ten year rolling period to see any selectable traits being locked into the genome.
Drone flood your breeding area with boy bees from your best colonies... and hope some one less informed does not introduce bees with terrible traits!!!
Good luck
Chons da

 

[Murox]

What about the drones ? You highlight the difficulties of open mating - you really need some control/influence over the drone population as well. Are you going to work alone or are you able to work cooperatively with others locally ?

 

[For want of a better word]

What about the drones ? You highlight the difficulties of open mating - you really need some control/influence over the drone population as well. Are you going to work alone or are you able to work cooperatively with others locally ?

I will get a slap on the wrist for saying this......

I wish !!!!

Chons da

 

[jeff33]

I have a good friend with some woodland and open grassland in a valley which is 1/2 mile flying distance from my apiary. He started bee keeping this year and I gave him one of my nuc to keep some control although he just got a random nuc from 1 of his customer from miles away. I plan to use that small valley as my mating apiary and will put a few of my drone breeding colonies there. There are a few other beeks around who I need to approach... But unlikely to get very far, they are more your 'Sunday beekeepers'.... But you never know.

 

[Ian123]

Jeff you question repeating step 2 but it depends very much on the bees you are dealing with. If you are rearing essentially local mongrels I’ve often had problems in the past with consistency. It’s not really until they are up running and established that you can get an idea what they are like. It’s 1 of the reasons I went over to simply rearing from pure race or strain queens and rearing f1 daughters, that and the quality produced.

 

[jeff33]

Thanks Ian. I don't want to rear from local mongrels, I dealt with them for 3 years and that was enough. For the last 3 years I have bought some very good F1s and they have paid some dividend with the drones helping to improve the quality of some of the bees with 1 hive in particular. I have raised 6 daughters of this hive which I want to test.

I know that I am going to struggle that way so I have 2 non related pure bred queens on order this year to raise F1s from.

 

[B+.]

Thanks Ian. I don't want to rear from local mongrels, I dealt with them for 3 years and that was enough. For the last 3 years I have bought some very good F1s and they have paid some dividend with the drones helping to improve the quality of some of the bees with 1 hive in particular. I have raised 6 daughters of this hive which I want to test.

I know that I am going to struggle that way so I have 2 non related pure bred queens on order this year to raise F1s from.

I think I can see what you are trying to do Jeff. I only have a couple of (I hope constructive) comments to make:
1. Drones are haploid so inherit all of their genetic material from their mother. Your F1's serve this purpose.
2. To ensure your virgins only mate with your desired drones. you will need instrumental insemination. Without this, your queens will mate with uncertain drones and you will be no further forward.

 

[For want of a better word]

I think I can see what you are trying to do Jeff. I only have a couple of (I hope constructive) comments to make:
1. Drones are haploid so inherit all of their genetic material from their mother. Your F1's serve this purpose.
2. To ensure your virgins only mate with your desired drones. you will need instrumental insemination. Without this, your queens will mate with uncertain drones and you will be no further forward.

I can only agree!

 

[Swarm]

I can only agree!

Really?
God forbid we ever see the day when we rely on mankind to make bees!!!

 

[mbc]

Really?
God forbid we ever see the day when we rely on mankind to make bees!!!

Quite!
I have quite a few colonies so step one is always to mark out probables early in their careers and to keep good records of them, I try and stick to using queens in at least their third year as queen mothers so there's a decent history to them as well as their dam.
Books like 'bee sex essentials' reckon your drone apiaries should encircle your mating apiary by about two kilometres, I'm dubious about this given the undulating topography of Wales and also if you're going down the native route they quite often mate close to home, nevertheless a good look on Google maps should give you some idea about how to place a ring of steel around your chosen mating site, it's encouraging to find that when you have a clear idea about where you'd like to place bees landlords are surprisingly obliging if approached right, but be prepared to take knock backs and keep plodding on to the next site with your cap in hand. You can't beat pub landlords and church wardens for local knowledge about who owns particular pieces of land.

 

[SDM]

Quite!
I have quite a few colonies
Google maps should give you some idea about how to place a ring of steel around your chosen mating site,

You must have more than quite a few as with a mating apiary next to the sea I need less than a semi circle "of steel" yet my 55 colonies at 5 sites of 1-3 miles distance all running 20% drone comb. Plus others running 10 of my queens at 2 sites doesn't achieve control. Some influence sure.
I also find it incredible that you think terrain has had Welsh bees inbreeding for thousands of years, though perhaps it would explain a lot.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Morning Jeff, I like you have been selecting Queens to breed from This season.
All 4 queen's were selected last year and I've been working away at it and produced 14 mated nucs.. Out of 16 so two failed I think because of the weather.
My first 10 mated queen's were completely black and looked like there mothers.. But my second 6 queen's were not really black at all and had more ginger colouring and also they are not so stable on the frame. its interesting how just weeks between matings can turn up such different looking queen's.

Concidering I've all black queen's at 4 apiarys on the Clee

Im hoping when the present situation changes I plan to get my self down to do some serious instrumental insemination.. I've been asked if I want to queen rear on a big scale.. The answer was no because of work commitments.. But ive changed my mind and want to do it.
I want to produce as many black girls as I can.. Watch it!

Jeff, how have you got on with your incubator chalange?

 

[B+.]

step one is always to mark out probables early in their careers and to keep good records of them, I try and stick to using queens in at least their third year as queen mothers so there's a decent history to them as well as their dam.

The difficulty with this approach is that a colonies performance can be heavily influenced by environmental factors (weather, forage, etc).
I am all in favour of having as much information as possible to inform your decisions but information based on a single generation could be misleading.

 

[mbc]

I also find it incredible that you think terrain has had Welsh bees inbreeding for thousands of years, though perhaps it would explain a lot.

Influence is all you can hope for without absolute isolation in open mating, drones are a bit like olden days bards or minstrels and are welcome in any hall, so can leapfrog huge distances. I wouldn't pretend, nor want, to have total control over mating.
Topography plays an important role as bees won't want to fly over exposed mountains or open bodies of water but will happily fly many miles up and down valleys.
What you think I think and what i actually think obviously diverge somewhat.

 

[mbc]

The difficulty with this approach is that a colonies performance can be heavily influenced by environmental factors (weather, forage, etc).
I am all in favour of having as much information as possible to inform your decisions but information based on a single generation could be misleading.

I agree, I obviously follow the maternal line but can see where you are at an advantage using ii, I however also don't see ii suiting my end goals, you pays your money and take your choice.

 

[Swarm]

Choosing your breeder queen.

By the looks of things, from a catalogue?
Helps if you can speak German....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just removed a few posts adding nothing to the conversation

 

[B+.]

Choosing your breeder queen.

By the looks of things, from a catalogue?
Helps if you can speak German....

I may understand the odd word of German but I don't speack it fluently. Nor do I use a catalogue.

 

[Swarm]

I may understand the odd word of German but I don't speack it fluently. Nor do I use a catalogue.

But you do bring in foreign bees, which was the subtle point that you obviously missed.