Cast with laying workers?

[Ben90]

Recently I hived a cast, this one not from one of my own colonies from what I could tell. I'd found the queen when I shook them into the nuc I'm keeping them in, and checked again when I opened the hive to let them fly 2 days later, still there.

Yesterday I opened the nuc to check on them, they've drawn out quite a bit of comb, but I couldn't find the queen, but could see what appeared to be supercedure cells without eggs/larvae dotted around one of the frames. Decided I'd check again today to make sure I hadn't missed her, and found multiple eggs in all of the supercedure cells, as well as in some of the surrounding cells on the same frame and the adjacent frame, and again, no sign of the queen.

Should I just write them off and unite them to another colony or should I give them more of a chance?

 

[oliver90owner]

'Recently' is not a useful term. Dates or objective periods would be useful.

 

[Ben90]

'Recently' is not a useful term. Dates or objective periods would be useful.

Cast was collected last wednesday, hive was opened to let them fly on thursday. It does seem a bit early for a laying worker. I've heard that new queens sometimes lay erratically for a while before getting into the hang of it, is there any truth in that?

 

[oliver90owner]

That was quick for the queen to start laying, but she was a few days old before the swarm.

when I opened the hive to let them fly 2 days later

'Two days later' and the next day do not compute! Hived Wednesday, opened Friday?

Not sure how you can write them off, just like that, after what, 3 days?

You may have kept her in too long! She may have been quite old - casts are renowned for absconding

She would not have started laying so soon if not mated, and I very much doubt it is laying workers - look at the position of the eggs and also the laying pattern. Two big give-aways for the beekeeper.

Entirely your choice as to what you want from them. No mention of size. You don't know their provenance, so have no idea of their health status.

Leave them a couple days and the eggs may well be removed. Check for more (later) eggs (another give-away whether she is there or not). Think here, there may not have been adequate cells in which could lay at the time.

More eggs, break down the q/cells. No eggs - you decide after considering the above comments on provenance.

 

[Ben90]

That was quick for the queen to start laying, but she was a few days old before the swarm.

when I opened the hive to let them fly 2 days later

'Two days later' and the next day do not compute! Hived Wednesday, opened Friday?

Sorry! Getting confused with the other swarm I've hived in the same week. Collected Wednesday, moved to out apiary on Thursday and opened for flying in the late afternoon.

Thanks for the advice, I'll check again and see if I can find her/see what the pattern is.

 

[oliver90owner]

Ben, you have a peculiar way of using language. 'The same week' should simply have been 'last week'?

As soon as you write like that there may be some confusion as to whether it was actually last week or possibly some other week! Now I am wondering about the precise time scale!!!

Clearly there should be a message for beginners and those that close up or move cast swarms before she has had her chance to mate properly. Closing the hive may easily have halved her mating opportunities.

I had not really considererd that in the past, so a new one for me.

 

[Ben90]

Ben, you have a peculiar way of using language. 'The same week' should simply have been 'last week'?

Yes, pardon me, I have a form of dyslexia so I mangle things like that sometimes when I don't proof-read what I've written. Both swarms were collected last week, both were casts, and this one is from unknown provenance. The hive this one was in was sealed for less than 24 hours to allow me to move it to an out apiary the following day.

 

[BeeJayBee]

both were casts

As O90O says, an unmated queen will not lay straight away.

If these are casts the new queens will need to take mating flights before being able to lay any fertile eggs. It might take a few weeks before she starts laying, and when she starts laying she could lay several eggs per cell until she gets the hang of it, and there's enough comb for her to be able to lay a lot of individual eggs.

You need to be patient. You will be able to tell if it's drone brood when it's capped.

 

[Ben90]

Okay, so an update.

First brood sealed, definitely all drone brood. Still can't find any sign of a queen for love or money.

So I guess the question now is, how should I unite a colony with laying workers to another colony?

 

[sharonh]

Okay, so an update.

First brood sealed, definitely all drone brood. Still can't find any sign of a queen for love or money.

So I guess the question now is, how should I unite a colony with laying workers to another colony?

Hi Ben,
As that saying goes, don't run before you can walk.
Is there multiple eggs on the side walls of cells? If you can't tell, shake bees off & have a better look in doors.
If multiple eggs at the bottom of the cells, it's a queen.
If you are not sure even with the eggs, take a photo & someone will be able to advise.
But with new queens, you really need to leave them alone for a few weeks, they can start with a few drones here and there at first but then come right.
Laying workers are a different story & you would need a strong colony to unite with or they could kill the queen in it.
Did you try a test frame from another colony?
How long ago since you saw the queen?
If a new queen, it can take 3 weeks or more for them to get going right. What are your calculations on everything? Have you given the required time for a new queen?
Not good to be going into a hive where a new queen isn't established ,yet as you could cause the bees to ball her.
If you haven't left her long enough, I would leave her alone now & for the required time.
Then if you still suspect that it's laying workers, you can ask for more advice.


Love Beekeeping <3

 

[Hivemaker.]

found multiple eggs in all of the supercedure cells, as well as in some of the surrounding cells on the same frame and the adjacent frame, and again, no sign of the queen.

Should I just write them off and unite them to another colony or should I give them more of a chance?

Write them off and put the equipment to better use, shake them out and let them beg their way into other hives, if united there is a risk they will kill the queen in that hive.

 

[oliver90owner]

12 days on. Is the laying pattern that of a queen or laying workers?

Yes, by all means try a test frame? Standard practise for testing if Q-.

Current observations should enlighten.

Sharon is right about that initial capped brood - first eggs could be mis-fires.

If/when it becomes absolutely clear there is no queen, or the queen is removed, then you can decide on a uniting strategy.

If Q-, frames of open brood could be added to suppress the laying workers before uniting with a weak colony; they could be united over a screen initially, so that the other queen's pheromones suppress the
laying workers; as per sharon, united with a very strong colony.
If Q+, you will have to eliminate the qeen first.

Wait and consider your options from your observations.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Write them off and put the equipment to better use, shake them out and let them beg their way into other hives, if united there is a risk they will kill the queen in that hive.

 

[Ben90]

Write them off and put the equipment to better use, shake them out and let them beg their way into other hives, if united there is a risk they will kill the queen in that hive.

Can't a laying worker beg to be let in and end up doing the same?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Can't a laying worker beg to be let in and end up doing the same?

Probably not.

I think the pheromone level will prevent it being allowed into a queenright colony, but am happy to be corrected.

 

[Ben90]

Probably not.

I think the pheromone level will prevent it being allowed into a queenright colony, but am happy to be corrected.

Problem is, the nuc the cast is in is on an association apiary and AFAIK at least one hive there owned by someone else is currently Q- waiting on queens to emerge.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Probably not.

I think the pheromone level will prevent it being allowed into a queenright colony, but am happy to be corrected.

You are correct - I've been told the same, pheremone level in Q+ colony will supress her laying instinct - as it does all the other workers in the hive.

 

[BeeJayBee]

You are correct - I've been told the same, pheremone level in Q+ colony will supress her laying instinct - as it does all the other workers in the hive.

Ah, okay, so the laying workers might be let in but they won't be allowed to lay?

Problem is, the nuc the cast is in is on an association apiary and AFAIK at least one hive there owned by someone else is currently Q- waiting on queens to emerge.

Developing queens produce pheromones that tell the colony they aren't queenless.