carniolan Queens

[banwee40]

Hi just a question do queens bred from carnie queens have the same sort of temperament or are they defensive. Not asking to start an argument just would like everyone's opinion who have used them and bred from them.

 

[Beefriendly]

You need to define your starting point before the bun fight begins...
Station/Isolated mated queen...guaranteeing next generation queen is pure carniolan?
Open mated queen....next generation queen could be only 50% carniolan...and so the decline begins?

Then you need to realise that not all breeders and sellers are equivalent ...and so it goes on.

 

[jeff33]

How long is a piece of string??? If you buy a carnie from a supplier for less than £50 it will be a F1 which has been open mated and as BF says, if you raise queens from that they will probably be 50% carnie. If you are in real luck she may have mated with some good drones but more than likely with poor stock... That will determine temper of her offsprings.

 

[VEG]

All depends on the traits of the drones they mate with

 

[banwee40]

You need to define your starting point before the bun fight begins...
Station/Isolated mated queen...guaranteeing next generation queen is pure carniolan?
Open mated queen....next generation queen could be only 50% carniolan...and so the decline begins?

Then you need to realise that not all breeders and sellers are equivalent ...and so it goes on.

Well it wont be isolated mating just wondered if in general with normal mating if the young queens would be fairly productive and calm. I usually breed my own queens which do go back to carniolans but very distant. at the moment some of my hives have bred some very defensive queens. its not F2 aggression because the carniolan queen goes back about 6 years.

 

[B+.]

Station/Isolated mated queen...guaranteeing next generation queen is pure carniolan?
Open mated queen....next generation queen could be only 50% carniolan...and so the decline begins?

Now I'm confused. An open mated carnica (or anything else) is only 50%? Really? Wow....and here I always thought she (and her drones were 100%. It's only her female progeny (workers & queens) that are 50% on average

 

[Beefriendly]

It's only her female progeny (workers & queens) that are 50% on average

That would be why I originally said the next generation queen from an open mated Carniolan could be only 50% carniolan.
Whereas a station mated Carnica queen (mated with selected Carnica drones) daughters will be 100% Carniolan.

 

[Show me the honey]

Well it wont be isolated mating just wondered if in general with normal mating if the young queens would be fairly productive and calm. I usually breed my own queens which do go back to carniolans but very distant. at the moment some of my hives have bred some very defensive queens. its not F2 aggression because the carniolan queen goes back about 6 years.

6 years since you bought a queen if it’s been working this long why not just take from one of your better hives or have all gone bad?

I have next to no experience in beekeeping it’s more of a question than advice! I also have short arms and deep pockets so hopefully my queens will be as good me as they have to you!

 

[banwee40]

6 years since you bought a queen if it’s been working this long why not just take from one of your better hives or have all gone bad?

I have next to no experience in beekeeping it’s more of a question than advice! I also have short arms and deep pockets so hopefully my queens will be as good me as they have to you!

I know my bees normally perform well but they don't seem to be working as well as normal. usually they have well over a super by now but some have only got half a super this combined with being a pain to inspect has made me wonder whether to put some new carniolan blood into them.

 

[B+.]

Whereas a station mated Carnica queen (mated with selected Carnica drones) daughters will be 100% Carniolan.

As will her daughters (even if she is open mated) and her daughters drones (because there is no genetic input from the drones)

 

[Beefriendly]

As will her daughters (even if she is open mated) and her daughters drones (because there is no genetic input from the drones)

No, if a Carnica queen was open mated it's not a certainty that her daughters will be 100% Carnica. They will be 50% her genes and 50% whatever drones she mated with....

 

[B+.]

No, if a Carnica queen was open mated it's not a certainty that her daughters will be 100% Carnica. They will be 50% her genes and 50% whatever drones she mated with....

That's not what I'm saying Beefriendly.
The queen herself is 100% carnica because her mother mated under controlled conditions with carnica drones. All of her sister queens would also be 100% carnica. It's only when those daughters open mate that the potential for random mating comes in. The daughters (workers and queens would be 50% carnica but that depends how good the drone saturation is - it could be higher or lower than that figure depending on what the queen mated with during her mating flight). Also, even a open mated queen will produce 100% carnica drones

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways

 

[For want of a better word]

No, if a Carnica queen was open mated it's not a certainty that her daughters will be 100% Carnica. They will be 50% her genes and 50% whatever drones she mated with....

If the 100% Carnica queen was mated with a 100% Carnica drone ( from a 100% Carnica mother) the offspring would be 100% Carnica

Why is that so difficult... B+ I believe uses selected drones in his II experiments... DNA tested.

I can only admire his tenacity, and wish I was even a third of a mile down the road to breeding "pure" Cornish Amm

The answer is to select and breed from you best stocks and flood the mating area with drones that are from that good stock line.

Chons da

 

[Poly Hive]

My experience of over 15 years now of using Carie queens is that the fourth year is when the problems start in that the temperament is not so good and the defensive behaviour increases. Which is why I try every three years or so to buy in some fresh blood usually from Denrosa as their stock is wonderful to work with.

PH

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

My experience of over 15 years now of using Carie queens is that the fourth year is when the problems start in that the temperament is not so good and the defensive behaviour increases. Which is why I try every three years or so to buy in some fresh blood usually from Denrosa as their stock is wonderful to work with.



PH

This I agree. I was brand new 4 years ago and now in my 5th. There were signs last year of defensiveness and this year much worse. Ive started rebooting as a result but will apply PH 3 year rule in future. Glad to hear PH words as it absolutely makes sense.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[banwee40]

Hi Poly Hive that would fit in when mine started to show some serious defensive behaviour. thanks for the info where are denrosa based.

 

[madasafish]

Hi Poly Hive that would fit in when mine started to show some serious defensive behaviour. thanks for the info where are denrosa based.

God's own country (Scotland)

 

[viridens]

I am interested in the reason for this change in colony behaviour as the queen ages reported above and elsewhere. Is it pheremonal?
If so, does she start to produce something which makes them more defensive and stroppy, or does she produce less of something that has been suppressing this bad behaviour, allowing it to surface, which seems more likely.

Is the same true in other strains of bee?

 

[banwee40]

Hi I could be wrong but I was under the impression that like me they are talking about breeding from these queens and as the following generation queens are bred the problems start to show. so as poly hive said he has found that after 3 years defensive behaviours start to show through in the breeding.