Capillary Action under lid

[drstitson]

yes that's the one!!!

i hope one day to be allowed to borrow PH's shoes!! (If only to announce that the pub is open!!! - if you're reading this tonybloke PH would like them back!)

 

[alanf]

could it be possible that in a cold winter hive some of the H2O generated by respiration condenses almost immediately upon any adjacent colder surface (ie on the stores themselves) rather than all rise to the crownboard?

This sounds reasonable to me:

For the Canadian Association of Professional Apiculturists by the Govt agricultural advisors http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf

"It is estimated that bees produce 0.68 kg of water per kg of honey they consume. This water is important to the bees and they use it to dilute honey, feed brood and flush metabolic wastes from their bodies. Nonetheless, some of this water escapes as a vapour, which in itself is important as brood develops best at 40% relative humidity. A problem occurs, however, when outside temperatures drop. Cold air does not hold as much water as warm air, so as warm moist air leaves the cluster, it condenses on the comb. Bees can cope with some moisture outside the cluster, but if the moisture accumulates and begins dripping back on the bees it saps them of heat."

 

[huntsman666]

<This water is important to the bees and they use it to dilute honey,>

Correct!

 

[markylaird]

Had this same problem at start of the year with a zinc sheet roof the lip only droped down an inch and the wood seem to be wet inside the roof. I removed the zinc sheet and replaced it with a larger one the drop was about 3-4 inches after new one was put on also painted top of roof before metal was added. Seemed to fix it

 

[tonybloke]

Quite right Tony - Although I think you should have aimed your comment at RAB - Huntsman answer was "on topic", RABs wasn't

Only for very minor brood rearing. It doesn't really matter in the depths of winter; all they need to do is metabolise it for thermal energy.

from RAB.


seems on topic to me?

 

[Drew]

from RAB.


seems on topic to me?

Chortle. Chortle.
If I had a few moments I think I could find a few posts (possibly from RAB) criticising selective quotations.
Chortle. Chortle.

;-)

 

[oliver90owner]

Talking about misquoting or selective quoting. Try this. Absolutely nothing to do with bees collecting condensation in a hive.

Some jester trying to blow smoke by quoting about periods of nectar flowand brood rearing. Now that is not exacly likely in the depths of winter when the bees are clustrered, is it?

What Yates has to say on the collection of water and its use by the colony.

Extract from 4.17.1: 'Additionally the honeybees produce a liquid excreement and must consume water regularly in order to survive. This water requirement is mainly derived from nectar but under certain circumstances the colony requires to actually collect water. The need arises when the average sugar content of the food exchange starts to become unbalanced and has a concentration greater than 50:50.'

If that is all Yates has to say, I for one can do without it. There are far more reliable tomes that contain relevant information (Yates obviously forgets that bees live somewhat differently during the winter clustering period).

Then we have another poster taking about 7 litres of water generated (but forgetting, or ignoring, another 3 kg derived from the honey (he quoted dry sugar). He does not consider that all of that 10kgs is, at some time, inside the bees. Seems a bit stupid of the bees to lose all that water for them to go suck it most of it back up again from the coldest parts of the hive in the depths of winter with the likliehood of death, on leaving the cluster to go to the extremities of the hive.

I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that bees work may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments.

Plainly and simply, bees need high water content foods for feeding brood. Winter, with no (or little) brood, is different.

 

[huntsman666]

RAB, I see your forum status has you down as 'Queen Bee.'

How apt!

 

[drstitson]

miaow!

 

[user 6228]

DRTITSON give him his hat back I'm going to put another arrow through it! (i dont own a gun)

 

[Bob Bee]

Talking about misquoting or selective quoting. Try this. Absolutely nothing to do with bees collecting condensation in a hive.

Some jester trying to blow smoke by quoting about periods of nectar flowand brood rearing. Now that is not exacly likely in the depths of winter when the bees are clustrered, is it?

What Yates has to say on the collection of water and its use by the colony.

Extract from 4.17.1: 'Additionally the honeybees produce a liquid excreement and must consume water regularly in order to survive. This water requirement is mainly derived from nectar but under certain circumstances the colony requires to actually collect water. The need arises when the average sugar content of the food exchange starts to become unbalanced and has a concentration greater than 50:50.'

If that is all Yates has to say, I for one can do without it. There are far more reliable tomes that contain relevant information (Yates obviously forgets that bees live somewhat differently during the winter clustering period).

Then we have another poster taking about 7 litres of water generated (but forgetting, or ignoring, another 3 kg derived from the honey (he quoted dry sugar). He does not consider that all of that 10kgs is, at some time, inside the bees. Seems a bit stupid of the bees to lose all that water for them to go suck it most of it back up again from the coldest parts of the hive in the depths of winter with the likliehood of death, on leaving the cluster to go to the extremities of the hive.

I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that bees work may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments.

Plainly and simply, bees need high water content foods for feeding brood. Winter, with no (or little) brood, is different.

 

[user 6228]

Talking about misquoting or selective quoting. Try this. Absolutely nothing to do with bees collecting condensation in a hive.

...Then we have another poster taking about 7 litres of water generated (but forgetting, or ignoring, another 3 kg derived from the honey (he quoted dry sugar). He does not consider that all of that 10kgs is, at some time, inside the bees. Seems a bit stupid of the bees to lose all that water for them to go suck it most of it back up again from the coldest parts of the hive in the depths of winter with the likliehood of death, on leaving the cluster to go to the extremities of the hive.

...

So your contention is that the bees get all their winter water requirements directly from the metabolic cycle and the residual honey water content....
I trust you can back up that statement with verifiable references or is this research you conducted yourself? or is it that you are deliberatly trying to find fault by changing your questions after the answer,

MY answer was in reference to your

"Pray tell us all: where do the bees get all this 'condensation water' from in a dry hive in the depths of winter when clustered tightly, and so barely moving as a group, for perhaps a month or more? "

I was not answering "They need it" or "They drink it" I was just taking you question literally rather than as a sarcastic rhetorical question on your part.

Another point Perhaps in your research you have neglected that your bees can get their water by condensation raining directly on the cluster?

 

[user 6228]

...Plainly and simply, bees need high water content foods for feeding brood. Winter, with no (or little) brood, is different.

You have stated the bees dont need (my italics) water in winter , But has your research shown that bee refuse water in winter even if presented with it in the cluster? After all behavior and need are sometimes orthogonal

 

[user 6228]

...a bit stupid of the bees to lose all that water for them to go suck it most of it back up again from the coldest parts of the hive in the depths of winter with the likliehood of death, on leaving the cluster to go to the extremities of the hive.

...

(my bolding)

Most Condensation occurs at the top of the hive, where the hottest and most water laden air meets colder internal surfaces. Thus bees taking a drink at the top of the hive are in a warm part of the hive not the coldest.

I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that Physics works may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments

 

[tonybloke]

(my bolding)

Most Condensation occurs at the top of the hive, where the hottest and most water laden air meets colder internal surfaces. Thus bees taking a drink at the top of the hive are in a warm part of the hive not the coldest.

I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that Physics works may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments

Physics is rarely simple.
as soon as you add in the 'living organisms' to the equation, it gets really complicated!!

 

[Skyhook]

You have stated the bees dont need (my italics) water in winter , But has your research shown that bee refuse water in winter even if presented with it in the cluster? After all behavior and need are sometimes orthogonal

My understanding is that bees can produce saliva to dilute their food, but that this has a metabolic cost and so a water supply is preferable. This is why they will attempt water collection on a mild day, even though there is a risk of getting too cold to make it back. I think this last part refers more to very early brood rearing, but the first part should apply as a general principle.

 

[user 6228]

Physics is rarely simple.
as soon as you add in the 'living organisms' to the equation, it gets really complicated!!

simple as in the equations of motion of an metaphorical arrow executing rhetorical reciprocation as it penetrates a imaginary hat

 

[oliver90owner]

I do find some postings to chortle about.

Chortle about these situations, then apply your specifics to generalities. Bees have been around long enough to manage without too much of a physics degree. Mine is physics, too.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/esneri/4442448315/in/photostream

 

[user 6228]

...
I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that bees work may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments.

....

...
...I do find some postings to chortle about. Trouble is the new beeks who do not understand the simple way that Physics works may be 'sucked in' by the mis-information and often flawed arguments ...

Chortle about these situations, then apply your specifics to generalities. Bees have been around long enough to manage without too much of a physics degree. Mine is physics, too.

You didnt spot my comment was ironic not literal? then humour of my parody was lost on you.

Perhap I should have added a smiley

So are you now contending that precedent trumps the laws of Physics? While some may argue that the laws may well have been very different around the time of the origin of the universe, I think we can be assured they have remained sufficiently constant since the origin of flowering plants.
or is it that your bees failed or got a 3rd for physics - bright bees

You have a degree in physics thats nice, I have always found words and actions are a better judge of character than pieces of paper.