Can I keep bees without taking the honey?

[peteinwilts]

slightly off topic...do vegetarians\vegans eat mushrooms?

 

[Nellie]

Thanks for your quick responses everyone. I thought there probably would be a lot more to it than just plonking the hive there and letting them do their own thing!

Sorry, I used the umbrella term 'vegan' fairly loosely. Personally, I agree that the vegan/honey debate is a grey area, and its interesting to hear the opinions of people who actually keep bees. Perhaps vegans are misinformed about honey. I just feel personally, (and with my total lack of knowledge about beekeeping) that the bees work very hard to make the honey, I'd feel a bit unkind taking it away from them. Maybe I've got this wrong, maybe you only take a portion of it? Anyway, I need to read up a bit more. As you all wisely say, there's an important domestic bee/beekeeper co-dependancy going on.

The bumble bee hotel idea is great, thank you, I think that is probably the way to go for my plot.

Thank you all very much for your advice.

Reub, I use traditional hives and my bees winter on their own honey and I take a harvest of the surplus. It doesn't have to be the level of exploitation that is frequently portrayed.

We do exploit, in the benign sense of the word, our bees. We give them far more room than they'd need or even choose as a wild colony and exploit their desire to pack away honey in quantities far in excess of their actual needs.

In the wild they'll pack the combs with honey until they start to run out of room and then start to think about swarming.

While adding honey boxes won't stop them wanting to swarm (it's reproduction at a colony level after all) it does take advantage of their willingness to make honey while nectar is available.

Id suggest that plonking a box of bees on an allotment and then leaving them to it is a recipe for making yourself unpopular very quickly, especially when they do swarm, and that taking on bees means accepting a level of responsibility for their wellbeing. I think putting bees into an artificial environment and then basically ignoring them is irresponsible and cruel.

I'd hope people wouldn't get a cat or dog and not feed it or take it to the vet when it looked ill on the basis they were a "natural" pet owner and don't fundamentally see a difference keeping bees, especially when they're going to be placed in close proximity to other people. While you might consider them "wild", they'll almost certainly see them as your bees and your responsibility; you put them there after all.

Just my tuppence on it

 

[Chris Luck]

And avoid top bar hives or any other "Natural way" of beekeeping as all will clash with your ideals!

I disagree completely with that as there is no requirement to do anything if you don't wish to, it can simply be providing them with a reasonably natural home that has been constructed by humans, rather like a cavity in a house wall etc.

There is no requirement to manipulate bees if you don't wish to and therefore no bees need get squashed.

Nellie, they are insects, not domestic animals. Highly colony structured perhaps like ants but insects none the less, or perhaps you have the same concern for all creatures?

Feral colonies are doing just fine here without intervention BUT inevitably some colonies perish and it's just as well they do but the three year thing is just imagination.

The problem for the OP and it would seem many in the UK is that keeping bees in an essentially non intervention manner is at best frowned upon if not actually disallowed as apparently in the case of an allotment. Now that is sad for bees and diversity of methods.

Chris

 

[nottingham]

slightly off topic...do vegetarians\vegans eat mushrooms?

I do feel that is a bit like asking "do vegetarians\vegans eat carrots?"

 

[Silly Bee]

I don't see anything wrong with it at all.

Mushrooms are fungi that grows on animal "by products"

Honey is basically necter, processed by the bees.

 

[peteinwilts]

I do feel that is a bit like asking "do vegetarians\vegans eat carrots?"

I disagree... they are very different foodgroups

I used to work a few miles from a Mushroom farm. They used to make their own compost from chicken carcasses.
When the wind was blowing in the wrong direction in summer, the smell was horrendous.

carrots are vegetables that take nutriants from the soil. Mushrooms are fungii that take nutrients from rotting material (in this case chicken carcasses)

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I disagree... they are very different foodgroups

I used to work a few miles from a Mushroom farm. They used to make their own compost from chicken carcasses.
When the wind was blowing in the wrong direction in summer, the smell was horrendous.

carrots are vegetables that take nutriants from the soil. Mushrooms are fungii that take nutrients from rotting material (in this case chicken carcasses)

Didnt know that (and dont think I wanted to!)

 

[nottingham]

I disagree... they are very different foodgroups

I used to work a few miles from a Mushroom farm. They used to make their own compost from chicken carcasses.
When the wind was blowing in the wrong direction in summer, the smell was horrendous.

carrots are vegetables that take nutriants from the soil. Mushrooms are fungii that take nutrients from rotting material (in this case chicken carcasses)

Oh my word you learn something new everyday. So would Organic Mushrooms be OK for Vegans to eat? Animal waste free?

 

[drstitson]

"Oh my word you learn something new everyday. So would Organic Mushrooms be OK for Vegans to eat? Animal waste free?"

not necessarily. they probably just use carcasses of organic chickens!

i bet there isn't much organic or vegan food that can truly state that it is "Animal waste free".

no artificial fertilisers and no s**t doesn't make for good crops.

 

[Nellie]

Nellie, they are insects, not domestic animals. Highly colony structured perhaps like ants but insects none the less, or perhaps you have the same concern for all creatures?

Fundamentally, yes. Once you put them into an artificial environment you're responsible for them whether it's a colony of bees or a herd of elephants.

If you put a package of bees into a hive of foundation and it starves before they get comb drawn is that nature taking its course or your fault for not feeding them?

If a swarm takes residence in a space of its own accord and you and your neighbours decide to leave them alone and see what happens that's one thing.

When you go pick up a swarm, nuc, package etc, stick them in a hive and then ignore them then you're failing in your responsibility to an organism that you decided to manipulate to begin with and potentially to the people around you that also share that space.

 

[Silly Bee]

Oh my word you learn something new everyday. So would Organic Mushrooms be OK for Vegans to eat? Animal waste free?

Should be fine, they wouldn't be eating the animal at all.

I think "Organic" mushrooms might be difficult to prove.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Fundamentally, yes. Once you put them into an artificial environment you're responsible for them whether it's a colony of bees or a herd of elephants.

If you put a package of bees into a hive of foundation and it starves before they get comb drawn is that nature taking its course or your fault for not feeding them?

If a swarm takes residence in a space of its own accord and you and your neighbours decide to leave them alone and see what happens that's one thing.

When you go pick up a swarm, nuc, package etc, stick them in a hive and then ignore them then you're failing in your responsibility to an organism that you decided to manipulate to begin with and potentially to the people around you that also share that space.

I agree. And I wouldn't be particularly happy if the "hands-off" beekeeper next door failed to spot that his bees were spreading AFB all over the place.

 

[peteinwilts]

Should be fine, they wouldn't be eating the animal at all.

I think "Organic" mushrooms might be difficult to prove.

.... you are what you eat!..

 

[Chris Luck]

I agree. And I wouldn't be particularly happy if the "hands-off" beekeeper next door failed to spot that his bees were spreading AFB all over the place.

More unsupported tosh.

Keep them coming.

When you go pick up a swarm, nuc, package etc, stick them in a hive and then ignore them then you're failing in your responsibility to an organism that you decided to manipulate to begin with and potentially to the people around you that also share that space.

There's possibly some truth in that except that if starvation or some other cause (?) was the issue, presumably due to extreme bad weather, then that would have applied if the bees were left hanging around to find their own des res. Obviously all this really only applies to an allotment or urban back yard.

I certainly won't be sitting up late worrying about "my bees", of course some may worry about their "investment".

Chris

 

[greatbritishhoney]

More unsupported tosh.

Keep them coming.

Chris

Chris, surely it goes without saying that if you are not looking for signs of disease then you are not going to spot them if they are there?
If disease is present and untreated then it will spread - this applies to humans, animals, bees, whatever.
I don't see why you would think was "unsupported tosh" - surely it's just basic science?

 

[Chris Luck]

Well more or less but you don't have to manipulate and poke about inside a colony to know if there is an issue and I don't know about the UK but AFB is as rare as rocking horse manure here and isn't even known in my region.

Don't get me wrong, poking about and playing with bees is great fun, I just decided that I was going to resist even though the urge to fiddle is still there and it really does work, anyone is welcome to come and see the bees..

Anyway it would be nice to see a bit of balance on here and an end to sweeping statements about disease and pests, most of which, like all sweeping statements are erroneous anyway.

Got to go and get into a nice skirt now.

Chris

 

[BobH1]

Fundamentally, yes. Once you put them into an artificial environment you're responsible for them whether it's a colony of bees or a herd of elephants.

If you put a package of bees into a hive of foundation and it starves before they get comb drawn is that nature taking its course or your fault for not feeding them?

If a swarm takes residence in a space of its own accord and you and your neighbours decide to leave them alone and see what happens that's one thing.

When you go pick up a swarm, nuc, package etc, stick them in a hive and then ignore them then you're failing in your responsibility to an organism that you decided to manipulate to begin with and potentially to the people around you that also share that space.

 

[Nellie]

Anyway it would be nice to see a bit of balance on here and an end to sweeping statements about disease and pests, most of which, like all sweeping statements are erroneous anyway.

In the context of the original question, it's not responsible to put a hive of bees on an allotment and ignore them. For other Beekeepers in the vicinity disease, including [especially] varroa, is a problem and for non beekeeping neighbours a neglected hive especially one swarming frequently can be intimidating and it's the rest of us conspicuous by our attendance who'll take the flak for it and future Beekeepers will be told no, they can't use the allotment because of previous problems.

While I don't agree with the principle, If you want to dump and ignore a hive of bees in the middle of a farmers field or out in the countryside elsewhere then that's up to you, the impact on other people if not Beekeepers is minimal.

 

[Chris Luck]

Yes, I think I did mention that this clearly is an issue with allotments and back yards in the UK.

There were however several erroneous posts as I'm sure you noticed, such as the usual clap trap about bees not being able to survive more than 3 years without a human to look after them and to be absolutely correct, (once again), varroa is not a disease and doesn't in itself kill bees to any extent, maybe a few larvae.

I like my bees to behave as nature intended as far as is possible and that includes swarming, hence I have a place in the countryside with my own land where I don't have to listen to moaning minnies.

Chris

 

[nottingham]

More unsupported tosh.

Chris you don't seem to talk very highly of yourself. Talking tosh and trying to support it isn't working very well for you. If the French beekeepers are happy with infecting each others hives, then I don't think anyone from this forum would be in a hurry to buy a nuc from france.