can a new queen swarm

[Niall]

About 3 weeks ago I split my first hive then the original queen swarmed a few days later. We were lucky enough to capture her then put her in a new hive. Now the secrets’ out the neighbours know.

This evening from had an urgent phone call from one of my new friendly neighbours saying there as a swarm at the top of the road. I was home at lunchtime and didn’t see any swarm leaving. Also we clipped the original queen a few days ago.

First hunch was it wasn’t my first queen and that it shouldn’t be the two new queens.

When I got home check all hives and thought the split hive (not the hive I put the original queen in) looked as if there were less bees than a few days ago when there were signs of eggs and larve. Now I find very little larvae though loads of stores but no queen cells.

Would a new queen swarm and what would cause it to?

Forever frustrated

Niall

 

[richardbees]

it shouldn’t be the two new queens

If you lefgt two Q cells it was the first one out....lots of recent posts about AS and nucs swarming - probably this sunny weather after the cold Spring

 

[abi-e]

Some bees are just swarmy. We collected a cast that had come from a feral colony in a felled tree last summer. Built them up nicely in a nuc and then hived them over winter - all good and healthy. Now all they want to do is swarm. Split to reduce colony size, swarmed, collected, swarmed, collected, gone!! My lovely marked queen - gone!! now waiting for a virgin queen to mate and she will no doubt decide to move too!!

 

[galileo]

Hi Niall

Yep, two queens working happily together in one box is a very rare thing indeed. Usually, one of them will scarper with a load of workers to set up another home. Sounds like that's what you've just witnessed.

Sometimes, the first queen to emerge will be allowed to kill any rivals, but if the bees think they have enough womanpower to make it out there, they'll prevent her from doing so and then it's a case of "this town ain't big enough for the both of us." It would seem that this year, for reasons best known to the bees but probably due to the weird weather of late, casting is the norm.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Yep, two queens working happily together in one box is a very rare thing indeed.

It is not rare at all.

 

[susbees]

It is not rare at all.

If you replace queens at a year as some do....then you'll never be able to select for supersedure strains.
If you mark your queens and look for her...then once seen many would stop looking for queens. There is an old photo banded about at lectures of a photo with two marked queens - mother and daughter: there is a third queen, unmarked, in the same photo. Look, look again, and select for non-swarmy strains.

 

[oliver90owner]

Richardbees is likely correct, but the timing is a bit off.

'About three weeks' is a bit woolly. Timings need to be a bit better than that.

Say, 9 days from split, first queen emerged. That leaves another twelve days before a cast swarm has issued. I would not be surprised if this is not the first cast from the colony.

Now tell us whether you left any number of queen cells in the parent colony? Did you go back in and remove queen cells after the A/S?

If you did not do that and there were later queen cells drawn, that is very likely your problem.

 

[galileo]

Re: 2 queens working in one box

It is not rare at all.

Ah, thanks for the correction; apparently another myth to which my inexperience had subscribed.

 

[drstitson]

niall - we need more information about what you actually did for this split and how many queen cells were left (and where). also what you've seen in each box since the split.

obviously if nuc had 2 QCs then cast is likely. also very easy to miss a hidden QC in parent hive.

you don't say whether you have seen your original HM at last inspection and if not whether there are more QCs or if eggs are present.

you're probably learning the hard way that simple splits don't deal with the swarm instinct. sure breaking up a hive into 3-4 nucs, rebalancing numbers etc will likely work BUT just removing a bit of the colony with some QCs leaving queen, most of the brood and nurse bees AND all the foragers will not stop swarm preps. just delay things by a few days whilst giving you a spare colony.

 

[Niall]

Split 1st hive on 15/5. Could find original Q but put 5 frames of broad and stores in new hive.

1st swarm was on the 19/5, original Q legged it. Captured her and now on H3 (this was only to be a hobby). Found Q cells in H1 and H2 removed all except one in each.

31/5 checked all hives no Q cells in any hives and all looked well numbers building up nicely I thought.

Then yesterday Q in H2 scarpered

 

[beeno]

Split 1st hive on 15/5. Could find original Q but put 5 frames of broad and stores in new hive.

1st swarm was on the 19/5, original Q legged it. Captured her and now on H3 (this was only to be a hobby). Found Q cells in H1 and H2 removed all except one in each.

31/5 checked all hives no Q cells in any hives and all looked well numbers building up nicely I thought.

Then yesterday Q in H2 scarpered

Hi Niall,
Sorry, you are having a stressful time (my turn soon I am sure). Once you start tearing their QC down they speed up the process so a seven days inspection schedule is no longer relevant. They can do it in three days by using two day old larvae and swarming on day eight i.e. 3 days an egg + 2 days larva = 5 days already when you inspected on 31/5! Did you find a QC?

 

[oliver90owner]

Split 1st hive on 15/5. Could find original Q but put 5 frames of broad and stores in new hive.

1st swarm was on the 19/5, original Q legged it. Captured her and now on H3 (this was only to be a hobby). Found Q cells in H1 and H2 removed all except one in each.

31/5 checked all hives no Q cells in any hives and all looked well numbers building up nicely I thought.

Then yesterday Q in H2 scarpered

Still not the complete picture, or am I missing something? Where was the queen after the split? What precisely is H1 and H2?

Could find original Q Is that correct or should it read 'could not'?

My first guess (and only a guess) is that you missed at least one queen cell.

 

[beeno]

Hi Niall,
I agree with Oliver. You most probably have missed a QC in which case you may still have a queen in there! The build up you saw would be from previous queen not the new one. However, maybe one just came into lay that's why the other one had to leave! It's not over until the fat lady sings!

 

[Niall]

Hi Niall,
I agree with Oliver. You most probably have missed a QC in which case you may still have a queen in there! The build up you saw would be from previous queen not the new one. However, maybe one just came into lay that's why the other one had to leave! It's not over until the fat lady sings!

Thanks for all the advice, I'm going to leave the hive alone for a few days maybe 10 and see.
Its not helped by the weather

Cheers
Niall

 

[Finman]

.
with splitting you destroy all your colonies. It is not able to swarm, but it is not able to do anything else too.

If you have a strong one box hive

- split
- shake
- feed