Buy in the UK.

[Into the lions den]

I understand where you are coming from, but the problem with Chinese goods is often the spec given to the manufacturer. Get the spec right and they can make just as good products as anyone else. Problem is they know they are usually dealing with people who want as cheap as possible and screw them to the floor for price, and two can play that game, its an adversarial approach to trade and its two sided.

However it can be very difficult to know for sure what you are buying in terms of ultimate provenance.

Recently I bought a consignment of nails. I asked about the origin, and was assured they were UK made, from Lancashire, where the vendor had their own facility. Had had some truly awful nails before from a bee supply house that shattered and broke, and were actually a bit unsafe to use. The were too hard and thus brittle when struck.

The new nails turned up. and were very good. No shattering no undue bending. Excellent quality. Then at the bottom of one box we find a small card tag, all written on in what to me was Chinese characters and western numbers. Took it to my friend who told me it was either Hakka or Cantonese, and referred to a wire nail factory in Fujien city.

Leaving the false claim of UK origin aside, at least someone got ther spec right. Not pleased at being fibbed to though.

 

[drstitson]

The highlight of a brief (4hrs) trip to venice was, for us, spotting the full boxes being UNLOADED at Murano, all labelled PRC.

 

[Alabamaeee]

I understand where you are coming from, but the problem with Chinese goods is often the spec given to the manufacturer. Get the spec right and they can make just as good products as anyone else. .

Yes you are correct they can do, but unfortunately many of the companies there take short cuts and use inferior materials if they can get away with it.

I know a company who gets expensive hi fi equipment made in China to their specific design and requirements. They sent out their designer to China and the company assembled and tested the goods while he inspected their work. First deliveries were to a very hi spec and performed well. Next consignment resulted in many failures after a short time.

The reason...

They fitted fake components which looked identical to the originals, in fact so authentic that the designer only confirmed his suspicions by xray of the components.

He now ships ISO containers full of components to another company, sends a rep out, and the company build his goods on the production line, and nothing else until his order is completed.

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes you are correct they can do, but unfortunately many of the companies there take short cuts and use inferior materials if they can get away with it.

Yes indeed. The spec has to be so tight there is no wriggle room at all on it.
Like I said, business is conducted by some manufacturers AND buyers as an adversarial relationship. Do that, get the spec even slightly wrong, and you get shafted. On both sides of the contract it is common for people to adhere to the letter of the contract, and ignore the spirit.

But then..........I have met that in this country too.

 

[Der Alte Fritz]

nice mark up eh?

Perhaps less than you think. In my industry here in the UK we pay 20% VAT, in Europe they pay 5% VAT and in PRC they pay 0% VAT when in a Special Economic Region. The simple fact is that doing business here in the UK is quite expensive when you add in the regulations and restrictions.

I would try negociating with your UK supplier, it is often surprising how flexible they can be when you are a regular customer.

 

[hedgerow pete]

my concerns with the jars was not spec, but unknown costs, the jars them selves were sold at 60pence a unit in china, then local taxs, delivery and packing into a container, shipping to the uk and then import vat, delivery to some where, were i can collect etc etc, i looked at using a shipping agent as well as self doing and when asked for difinate costs it was like herding cats, no one could really pin it down untill it was sat in front of me in the uk with a bill attatched to it

the next risk was sending two grand to someone in china and then waiting 6 weeks before finding out i was being ripped off by some 11 year old in china with a home computer!

personally i like dealing with european countries as i can drive over and deal direct and pay on collection, even when dealing in poland its still only a dirty weekend awaay from being at home and the money saved pays for the weekend away. also being MUCH smaller orders than lions den i can put them in a car rather than 3 lorries, lol

this i must admit has been trialed several times here with people trying to organise bulk ordering to lower costs, on several other web sites and forums i am on it has been done successfully, but it has never really caught on here,

one of the firms i used to deal with abroad used to tag small orders like mine onto larger ones all i had to do was to drive to where ever the main delivery was sent to , to collect my small part, which helped to keep costs down,

i also find that google translate and fleabay works well and its surprisingly cheap when you talk to european suppliers to post stuff to here

 

[Hivemaker.]

my concerns with the jars was not spec, but unknown costs, the jars them selves were sold at 60pence a unit in china, then local taxs, delivery and packing into a container, shipping to the uk and then import vat, delivery to some where, were i can collect etc etc

I think you would have cause to be concerned, cheaper to get them from a few miles down the road and pay around 20 pence per unit.

 

[Into the lions den]

Perhaps less than you think. In my industry here in the UK we pay 20% VAT, in Europe they pay 5% VAT and in PRC they pay 0% VAT when in a Special Economic Region. The simple fact is that doing business here in the UK is quite expensive when you add in the regulations and restrictions.

I would try negociating with your UK supplier, it is often surprising how flexible they can be when you are a regular customer.

The prices excluded VAT. I do not consider it in the basic price because I can claim it back. I have to account for VAT irrespective of the origin, as it is charged at point of import. It is also charged on the whole cost of the consignment, not just the goods. The carriage and the duty also have VAT added on top. Although I get it back VAT on duty really narks me, as it is a tax on paying tax.

The supplier in question is NOT in a special economic region. The EU supplier that was most competitive is in a 24% VAT territory. If you do not give a UK VAT number you get charged it at source, and its a real sod to reclaim.

Negotiating a quote at over 3K down to competing with one, once specs have been matched, that turns out to be only 10% of that figure (the low price in the first post turned out to be for thinner material) would seem a futile task. Last time I tried that I was told the price from Europe was cheaper than they pay for the sheets prior to stamping. I have an attitude anyway, against businesses that ask a stupid price at the start in the hope you will pay it. Its common but I think it sharp practice.

Maybe its something about metal and nails. A couple of years back we wanted brads for the frame nailers, as we had a huge number to do setting up the Co-op project. I was quote 44.60 a box, of 5000. Less than a penny each, and they ARE 42mm long 18g brads. I did some research on the internet, and even in the UK found I could get them for under 6 pounds a box. Exactly the same spec. Printed the page off and took it in to my supplier, from whom I was a regular buyer, they supply and service our air nailing tools and all out nailing needs. The counter man took it and went to the back office and stuck it under the bosses nose, who looked and nodded, opened up his computer screen, and requoted. 4.95 a box. I was utterly gobsmacked. It had been nothing more than an attempted rip off. Indicated that Mr ILTD was not a happy bunny. So they threw in free delivery too and the loan of a third tool FOC while we did the job.

Thats not negotiation though, thats rumbling a rip off and calling them for it.

 

[alanf]

Maybe its something about metal and nails. A couple of years back we wanted brads for the frame nailers, as we had a huge number to do setting up the Co-op project. I was quote 44.60 a box, of 5000. Less than a penny each, and they ARE 42mm long 18g brads...and requoted. 4.95 a box. I was utterly gobsmacked. It had been nothing more than an attempted rip off. Indicated that Mr ILTD was not a happy bunny. So they threw in free delivery too and the loan of a third tool FOC while we did the job.

A business model from the text books. The tool is sold more or less at cost, even given away. The supplies are where the profit lies, but is often overlooked as "only a penny a nail". The basic idea was used by King Camp Gillette. When he started in 1904, the razors were expensive, half a workman's pay for a week. By the time the US entered the first world war in 1918 the strategy had changed completely. They were giving a razor and a few blades to every US soldier. 3.5 million customers created in a few months who would be buying blades back home for the next 50 years.

Best modern example is computer printers, a full set of ink cartridges costs as much as the original printer pack. To stop customers treating the printer as 'disposable' the cartridges in the box are 'demo' size, good for only a few pages. Meanwhile to slow the refillers and reproducers, the cartridges have ever more sophisticated chips and change models every couple of years.

 

[Norton]

Murray, why do you prefer to use eyelets over 8mm staples? Shooting the staples into side bars is a lot faster than hammering in eyelets.

 

[For want of a better word]

Murray, why do you prefer to use eyelets over 8mm staples? Shooting the staples into side bars is a lot faster than hammering in eyelets.

From an engineering viewpoint the eyelet is fixed into a pre drilled hole, whereas the staple could shatter the timber.

A little off subject but related.. I saw some footage of tests for mortice locks fitted into 2 hour fire doors,... the one fitted properly with the screws holding the lock into the mortice with a proper sized drilled pilot hole for the screws
took a lot more force than the ones "Wimpey screwed" with a hammer!

Remember asking a Wimpey ?carpenter? why screws had slots in the heads... he answered to take them out!

 

[Into the lions den]

Murray, why do you prefer to use eyelets over 8mm staples? Shooting the staples into side bars is a lot faster than hammering in eyelets.

Number of reasons. The round corners from the eyelets is a lot kinder to the wires. We have a jig for eyeletting and its not a slow job, puts in the whole end bars eyelets in one pass. When rewiring they can start anywhere, but staples kind of dictate the procedure. Staples get eaten by the caustic at boil out and then the high tension we put on our wires cuts through them. Same reason we have a preference for stainless eyelets and high tensile stainless wire. Both much more expensive, but highly durable.

The frames come predrilled for eyelets too, and the latest lot come pre eyeletted and wired.........thats the easiest of all!

Have a lot of second hand NZ frames that arrived in the UK in comb honey contracts and were sold off afterwards. Even they rolled up half of them eyeletted and half with staples..........after trying both ways, and having some wires snap at the right angle over the staples, we decided to eyelet even the frames already with staples.

Yes it takes a little longer, but I like to set things up on day one the way they will be in most cases for the duration of the life of the frame.

Takes about five mins a box more than staples way............60p
Eyelets dearer..............................................................18p
Top grade stainless wire dearer.......................................35p

1.13 a box more...............yes it adds up over a big number, but the number of 'redos' after extracting or sterilising is slashed...............and adds up to a saving equivalent to the extra cost, and time saved.

So its not just about eyeletting vs staples per se.......its the package the eyelets fit into thats the main reason.

Final frivolous but nonetheless true reason?

Nice little pocket money earner for my youngest kids, that also kept them out of mischief! their nimble little fingers were faster than the adults too!

When the adult crew came to make the frames up the side bars were already sitting there eyeletted.

 

[Into the lions den]

Remember asking a Wimpey ?carpenter? why screws had slots in the heads... he answered to take them out!

No offence meant to our Irish readers as this is a historical tale from way way back when I was on ships.

The carpenter asked me to get him a screwdriver, which as a greehorned kid I duly went and got.............only to cop a roasting from him..........not what he wanted. He wanted a 'paddy's screwdriver' which in their parlance was a 2lb ball peine hammer or claw hammer. The whacked the screws in with the hammer nad only use the proper screwdriver for the last half inch.

The term was used on almost all UK crewed ships I was on, including by Irishmen.

 

[PBee]

The whacked the screws in with the hammer nad only use the proper screwdriver for the last half inch.

...and we take them out with our teeth - can't be bothered faffing about with those poncy little tools.

 

[PBee]

Just found out the Welsh don't bother with them either......

Is that a dejected looking Englishman in the background?

 

[Swarm]

As you can see, Gareth also uses his nose to hit them in.

 

[PBee]

As you can see, Gareth also uses his nose to hit them in.

We woulda won the world cup if youse boys hadda have the decency to let us through
I don't hold a grudge though......f*&%$*^s

 

[For want of a better word]

The PROPPER name for the implement is a turn screw........

reminds me of the day as an apprentice I was sent to the stores for a long weight !

 

[Into the lions den]

The PROPPER name for the implement is a turn screw........

reminds me of the day as an apprentice I was sent to the stores for a long weight !

At sea it was a long stand.......which was exactly what you got as they pretended to be looking for it while you hung about looking stupid.

They only actually got me once. With a trick that went on sucessfully for about three weeks, sending me out at just before 11 on Sunday morning with huge rusty key to open the hymn book locker and bring the hymn books for the service. Gee did I get a roasting for not being able to find it and then being so late that the service was over. Once I twigged what it was all about I played along for a few weeks more, until one day the Captain caught me sunbathing on what was called the monkey island (the higest part of the ship) with a couple of cold beers, whilst supposed to be away getting the hymn books.

They sent me for green oil and red oil for the sidelights. I arrived with both, much to the puzzlement of the third mate who sent me...

I got a bucket of steam I was asked to go get. Thats was a GOOD one, and got the chief mate a rollicking from the captain.............amazing how much steam a pressure vessel with superheated water gives off in the wheelhouse when he opened it to see wtf it was I had brought him................I was indebted to the tune of four cold beers to the second engineer for that one!

Then I started to get my own back. I was quite good at inventive practical jokes. The chief mates cabin stank for a couple of weeks, almost to the point of uninhabitability. Dont think he ever found out who hid a selection of French cheeses and a frozen salmon deep inside his air conditioning unit one night while he was on watch and waited for a few days for it to rot, all the while the smell levels rose.

Two pack foam fire extinguisher refills.................oh joy of joys.......and the bridge toilet while my nemesis the third mate was on watch...................the clear part in the toilet bowl........the foamer part in the cistern. Vesuvius.

As a beekeepers son I had little fear of catching evil looking insects, and in Borneo and the likes they flew around in abundance. How they managed to invade certain peoples cabins (those who had tried to prank me) and no-one elses remained a mystery.

The fourth engineer I despised. He did not prank me but he was the most unpleasant unhelpful character I ever met..........and was the last of my victims and the prank that brought me up in front of the captain for discipline....administereed with an inability to keep a straight face by aforesaid capt..........and after the hearing where I was made to promise no more pranks, I returned to my cabin to find a case of cold beer waiting, delivered on the capts instructions....apparently he hated the fourth engineer as much as I did. This involved a 1AM project while the man was away on watch, and blocking the overside valve for the sewage pipe from the upper deck, then using some firehose and a few jubilee clips open up the 'in port' line where sewage was stored in a tank till at sea, and lead it to the wash water discharge pipe for the section where aforementioned 4E had the first cabin. The sound of 'stuff' sloshing around in his washroom and a full shower bowl, and a horrendous smell greeted him later after his shift.

Could write a book on the stuff that befell me and others during those years...........much of strictly post watershed stuff.

Yes..........WAY WAY off thread!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ball bearing in the deckhead is always a good one (helps hone the victims rummage skills though)
Telling the trainee to find and top up the windscreen washer bottles for the wheelhouse is always a good one (gets them searching for a few days until they realise it comes direct through the freshwaer system) until one turned up looking very pleased with an empty screenwash bottle a satisfied smile reporting - 'I've done it'
And being in charge of bosunry it's always funny watching the trainees perusing the Admiralty manuals for the definition of a spur lash.
Still to find out which crew member told a female trainee to ask me to show her the golden rivet (as I was drinking a cup of tea)
Boot polish on the binocular eye pieces another harmless one.