building frame

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Anyway the fact that you've never heard of it........................Partly bullshit or total bullshit?

Honestly - I've never heard of it
but you're correct - sounds like total bullshit to me

 

[pargyle]

But it’s outside the brood nest never mind what orientation it has
Everybody had said it won’t work but we all like to learn so why don’t you try it and report back?
I shall ask a friend who beekeeps in France what he knows.

No wonder they build comb in the cadre temoin probably to keep out the draughts ...I'll bet they would propolise around the edges of that to the point where you would need a hammer and chisel to get it out. Just looking at it, in my humble and usually outrageous, opinion ... looks like a sop to people who don't want to inspect their bees ... there's a bit on one of the websites that actually details the downsides ..


The witness frame makes the hive weaker both from an insulation point of view and from a waterproofing point of view. Systematic maintenance is necessary each year to remedy this.
During the swarming period, it requires an additional operation to eliminate the queen cells that may be hiding there.
The witness frame is sometimes used by the queen to hide. Its research is therefore more tedious.

To learn more, here is a book that describes in detail the use of the witness frame.

I'm always game for trying a good idea ... my honest opinion .. looks like a lot of work and expense to solve a problem that doesn't exist for most beekeepers. Looking at some French forums ... it would appear that a lot of French beekeepers share my opinion: Try these for instance...from a French beekeeping forum ...

" I think it's not very practical, in addition, in terms of insulation in winter it's not great"
" I haven't practiced, but that's my opinion. I don't think that with a single frame and a single side we can analyze the hive. I prefer to open and see multiple frames. But that's just my opinion"

 

[happyculteur]

: Try these for instance...from a French beekeeping forum ...

You should be careful of what you read on beekeeping forums Seriously though, i think the insulation and waterproofing problems are not particularly valid. I found the idea in a book by Paschke which comes as a supplement to Storch's "at the hive entrance". It is apparently meant to complete the observations made by Storch. If anyone is as daft as I am to be interested by such things, and can manage French, I can email her/him a copy. Thanks to all for your remarks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

To learn more, here is a book that describes in detail the use of the witness frame.

Oooh a book! great, it can go on a shelf next to Wedmore and Yates - ready for the next lockdown toilet paper shortage

 

[pargyle]

You should be careful of what you read on beekeeping forums Seriously though, i think the insulation and waterproofing problems are not particularly valid. I found the idea in a book by Paschke which comes as a supplement to Storch's "at the hive entrance". It is apparently meant to complete the observations made by Storch. If anyone is as daft as I am to be interested by such things, and can manage French, I can email her/him a copy. Thanks to all for your remarks.

The comment about waterproofing and insulation came from comments made by French beekeepers not from me ... far be it for me to try and discourage you from having a go with these boxes .. I've been the biggest experimenter with my bees ... but I just don't believe that there are any serious advantages in this contraption. It's on thin ice in terms of being able to see varroa, it's on thin ice being able to predict swarming and any of the other attributes it promises. I don't approve of drone culling as a method of varroa control and ripping down the comb they build every time they build it seems like a tragic waste of the bee's energy .. if any of the claims they made were factual then every beekeeper in France would have them ...it's been around since the 1970's and doesn't appear to have proliferated ~ even by normal slow beekeeping take up of good ideas 50 years is very slow. Perhaps that tells us something ?

But do have a go and let us know how you get on ...

 

[viridens]

The cadre temoin is a strange device, but Warres with windows were mentioned. See above.
These were colonies coming out of winter. Note that on the left they have eaten their way up , on the right they have stayed in the bottom box and fetched stores down.
With windows It is possible to check remaining stores, whether feeding is needed, whether feed is being eaten or stored, when brood is capped, and how much, when extra boxes are needed, when honey is capped and ready etc. all without the need to open the hive. The windows work better in a top bar hive since there are no frames to block the view. Before anyone asks, yes, these windows are normally covered.

 

[Madge]

The cadre temoin is a strange device, but Warres with windows were mentioned. ...

Yes, I did. That was my first guess - but I was wrong. This inspection window is more complicated than a Warré’s, as has already been pointed out.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Note that on the left they have eaten their way up , on the right they have stayed in the bottom box and fetched stores down.

That is very interesting

 

[happyculteur]

Viridens, are those Warrés yours ?

 

[drex]

Oooh a book! great, it can go on a shelf next to Wedmore and Yates - ready for the next lockdown toilet paper shortage

JBM, I am not having a go, but am curious. Why do you knock the books and " sistificates" so much. I would have thought in your employ and other roles you have studied a good bit.
I believe the more I learn about bees, the better beekeeper I am. I use books, lectures, videos etc. I do prefer " live" teaching. I even have qualified for BBKA certificates, but these have been lost at local association level. I am not bothered, as I just make use of their comprehensive syllabus, often going off on tangents of my own. I study for my own enjoyment. I do sometimes get very frustrated on the forum when I read from people who have bees and obviously know nothing about beekeeping, but it takes all sorts. I pass on info and learn a lot from the forum. I mentor a few people locally. I appreciate your forum input.

 

[viridens]

Viridens, are those Warrés yours ?

Yes they are.

 

[happyculteur]

Why have you chosen a flat roof rather than the original *chalet* roof ?

 

[viridens]

Why have you chosen a flat roof rather than the original *chalet* roof ?

Here is a view of these hives from a different angle. But I also have flat roofs with a slab of Celotex below.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

JBM, I am not having a go, but am curious. Why do you knock the books and " sistificates" so much. I would have thought in your employ and other roles you have studied a good bit.

Yes, and my qualifications are internationally recognised, based on data that is regularly reviewed and updated by a raft of learned practically qualified masters and engineers, tickets which had to be re-endorsed at regular intervals when I was at sea or needed to keep the 'tickets' 'wet'.
Let's be perfectly honest, however much they would like them to be, the certificates etc. being bandied around this coutry are no better that a badge given to a scout or guide. Nice to have and to work for, but just a decoration for one's sleeve. And to be honest, even the certificate look like something my 14 year old niece has cobbled up on her computer.
There are books and there are books, I have shelves full from Root, Langstroth and Laidlaw through Cowan, Digges, Manley to Crane, Patterson and de Bruyn some have been demonstrated to be absolute rubbish, nothing but cut and paste copies of teachings that were suspect in the first place, some are classic 'must reads'how often do you see posts about yet another incorrect 'fact' in Yates? - something which is now so out of date and incorect it's not worth the (low quality) paper it's written on, there's one here on my shelf taking up space which could house something much more informative . Same as with certificates and qualifications. It's been obvious for years that those who set great import on 'modules' and made up qualifications (as let's be honest, that is what most of the BBKA tickets are) that they spend all their times memorising suspect 'facts' then regurgitate it for the next generation then believe they are superior to practical and knowledeable beekeepers - and so it goes on. Francis G Smith sums up the BBKA in a nutshell in his book 'Beekeeping in the tropics'.
The whole thing started off in the 1800's as an association of middle class dilettantes setting out to condescendingly instruct poor cottagers how to 'better' themselves (but not make a living) through bees, the titles and awards were just so that they could set themselves apart from the commoners, in fact, even their 'mission statement' at that time was pretty contemptuous of people who could have made a living from the craft.
To be honest, I rail at those who just quote parrot fashion from books to try and show their superiority when the majority of the time they haven't a clue what they have said, or how to put it to practical use.
In my time as a beekeeper (and before) I have had the good fortune to meet and correspond with quite a few bee masters (not a qualification of any kind, but a statement of respect agreed and given by many people) learnt from them, be inspired by many, their knowledge and skills have left me in awe, they've had one thing in common - seldom a certificate amongst them.
I think it was Wally Shaw who once told me (it could have been Jenny) 'if only they'd spend as much time with their noses in beehives as they do in books.'
Of course, this is just my personal opinion

 

[fiat500bee]

Let's be perfectly honest, however much they would like them to be, the certificates etc. being bandied around this coutry are no better that a badge given to a scout or guide. Nice to have and to work for, but just a decoration for one's sleeve.

......amusing, but a bit harsh on those who study or mentor for such things. I was never one for scouting and they wouldn't let me into the girl guides.

Beekeeping is the only hobby I've ever had where I've (unintentionally?) been made to feel a bit guilt-stricken not to have undertaken any training or guidance first. This Forum is the best place I have found where information is shared very freely but judgement of beginner error or ignorance is very restrained.

No stittificates for me.

 

[drex]

Thanks for clarifying JBM, I agree with most of what you say, but I need some base knowledge and then experience before I can read a hive. Like you, I would rather read the hive than just the book.
I do believe that I am a better beekeeper, the more I know about bees and a great believer in " let the bees tell you"

 

[viridens]

JBM, Thoroughly enjoyed your essay above.
I could rant for hours about the decline in standards in further and higher education and the worth of prize-every-time course certificates, but it's bad for my blood pressure. I will risk one mention: Many will remember the ONC/HNC routes to professional qualifications. This scheme was well recognised and respected. Your HNC was achieved by studying a national syllabus and sitting a national exam. Back in the 80's this qualification was replaced by the HTC, This new course was modular, with much more in-house assessment too. You passed by completing the requisite number of modules. So two students with 'identical' HTCs from different colleges may well have followed quite different courses, so not really national any more.
Employers were also confused by the new qualification, so to avoid this, after a while the name was changed to yes, you've guessed it, HNC.
Oh, and they are now assessed completely in house.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

JBM, Thoroughly enjoyed your essay above.
I could rant for hours about the decline in standards in further and higher education and the worth of prize-every-time course certificates, but it's bad for my blood pressure. I will risk one mention: Many will remember the ONC/HNC routes to professional qualifications. This scheme was well recognised and respected. Your HNC was achieved by studying a national syllabus and sitting a national exam. Back in the 80's this qualification was replaced by the HTC, This new course was modular, with much more in-house assessment too. You passed by completing the requisite number of modules. So two students with 'identical' HTCs from different colleges may well have followed quite different courses, so not really national any more.
Employers were also confused by the new qualification, so to avoid this, after a while the name was changed to yes, you've guessed it, HNC.

As someone on here said a while ago "the ability to do the job is now secondary to that of having the certificate"

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was never one for scouting and they wouldn't let me into the girl guides.

I was a scout - and they worked hard to make sure I didn't get into the guides

 

[Popparand]

Christopher Wren (he who built St Paul's Cathedral in London) designed a vertical hive with inspection doors at each level so you could see how far up the bees were drawing comb. As far as I know they were never used. Good idea though.