Brood + Super question

[Mwsedgwick]

Hi

Took possession of a hive recently that was a brood plus super colony with queen excluder above the super. Eggs and brood in both brood box and super with plenty of stores.

I found the queen last night in the brood box so decided to put the queen excluder between brood and super as normal. This will allow me to take a few frames of honey off.

Is this a good idea? Does the queen need to look after the capped brood in the super?

Thanks

 

[enrico]

It will be fine but you will get drones trapped above excluder. Is there enough room in brood box for queen to lay.
E

 

[Swarm]

It will be fine but you will get drones trapped above excluder. Is there enough room in brood box for queen to lay.
E

Is the most important consideration.

 

[eltalia]

Is the most important consideration.

Precisely... seeing as how you guys insist on using small boxes (1/2 size)
for everything. Looks really weird, to us "Down Under"
[n0t criticism]

Bill

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Just because is a shallow box does not mean it has to be used as a super. I, and my learned friend Enrico as well as others of course, have some hives as what is called 'brood and a half' meaning you are using the smaller shallow box along with your standard size as part of your bigger brood nest. In such case the same box is no longer designated as a super as the queen can lay. The previous hive owner was probably running this system (though why he had a Qx on top is odd, maybe he took a super off).

It can all get a bit confusing as some may have the shallow above the standard deep box and manipulate it to be brood, some may have it below again serving the same purpose. And some indeed may have the shallow above the standard and use it as a super even though there is no queen excluder. In short, you can use whatever boxes you like for the brood and indeed whatever boxes you like for supering ie respectively, boxes designed in your hive system for a) the express purpose of the queen laying thus your hive expanding and b) bees storing honey above all of this so you can easily harvest it.

Summary: Dont design your hive based on equipment names, design it so the queen and the colony can expand and use and plan for the kit you have and need.

...Then read all the foolishness on here and develop your hobby over years and you can get in embroiled in all the nuances and variations on the theme as you try to co-exist with your little lovelies.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

 

[Madge]

It will be fine but you will get drones trapped above excluder. Is there enough room in brood box for queen to lay.
E

If there’s drone brood in the shallow above the queen excluder, I always add a narrow eke with an entrance.

 

[eltalia]

"In short, you can use whatever boxes you like for the brood"

N0t so... there is good reason to be very selective around BCs.

"and indeed whatever boxes you like for supering ie respectively,
boxes designed in your hive system"

Such *is* flexible buuut you want to make decisions very early on
which kit for what or it all gets very messy very fast.

Bill

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

"In short, you can use whatever boxes you like for the brood"

N0t so... there is good reason to be very selective around BCs.

"and indeed whatever boxes you like for supering ie respectively,
boxes designed in your hive system"

Such *is* flexible buuut you want to make decisions very early on
which kit for what or it all gets very messy very fast.

Bill

Yes Bill....they are different sizes for a reason. But the OP is a beginner and this is a beginners area for a reason. Some of us are still in the little pool.... I was trying to point out that these sizes are not so important as thinking about what a brood nest is and what honey stores are. Hope he or she will ask further questions to help the initial learning process.

 

[Curly green fingers]

Precisely... seeing as how you guys insist on using small boxes (1/2 size)
for everything. Looks really weird, to us "Down Under"
[n0t criticism]

Bill

Just a question if your using big boxes BC.. all your queen's must be very prolific .
And your built like a brick **** house !
My mentor has longstroth hives he can keep them I value my back .

 

[Mwsedgwick]

Thanks for the replies. Pleased to hear it shouldn't be an issue.

Stupid question but what do people mean by 'enough space in the brood box'?

I have 2/3 frames in there that haven't been formed yet plus 2 empty with no eggs. Queen has laid nice brood pattern in others with both fresh eggs and capped

 

[eltalia]

Yes Bill....they are different sizes for a reason. But the OP is a beginner and this is a beginners area for a reason. Some of us are still in the little pool.... I was trying to point out that these sizes are not so important as thinking about what a brood nest is and what honey stores are. Hope he or she will ask further questions to help the initial learning process.

Yep, hearing you.
My mention is there to raise discussion, precisely because new
operators are reading.
Unless there is an agenda to preserve some form of a monoploy
introduction of new(er) concepts should be welcomed provided
these are not of the hocus-pocus psuedo science genre.
We are on the same page as to BC and supering usage... this just
hasn't come out yet. Hopefully it will, if the can throwers can stay
quiet long enough.
/wry smile/

Bill

 

[eltalia]

Just a question if your using big boxes BC.. all your queen's must be very prolific .
And your built like a brick **** house !
My mentor has longstroth hives he can keep them I value my back .

A fully packed out full depth 9/10 Lang BC, one with bees and brood
only weighs buggerall.
Now right there is a clue as to one aspect of BC development many
get very very wrong.

Bill

 

[Curly green fingers]

A fully packed out full depth 9/10 Lang BC, one with bees and brood

only weighs buggerall.

Now right there is a clue as to one aspect of BC development many

get very very wrong.



Bill

Enlighten me?

Sent from my Nokia 1 using Tapatalk

 

[eltalia]

Enlighten me?

Sent from my Nokia 1 using Tapatalk

I'm fairly sure I've posted this sketch before, here it is again.
As a concept getting to what is displayed may be very new to
some here... even meet with some raucous derision.
We'll see.
The supering can be anything, however the BC must be a
single 10frame full depth run at 9/10 during the flows
and 10/10 over dearths (winter).

Bill

 

[Swarm]

Thanks for the replies. Pleased to hear it shouldn't be an issue.

Stupid question but what do people mean by 'enough space in the brood box'?

I have 2/3 frames in there that haven't been formed yet plus 2 empty with no eggs. Queen has laid nice brood pattern in others with both fresh eggs and capped

So there are three foundation frames and two empty combs? That leaves basically a six frame nuc in a standard brood chamber. The super was added too early and the bees then ignore the other frames for those in the shallow box overhead.
Think what the queen will find now the excluder has stopped her access to the top box. Less than 50% of the laying space she had? You need to get those brood frames drawn out

 

[Mwsedgwick]

So there are three foundation frames and two empty combs? That leaves basically a six frame nuc in a standard brood chamber. The super was added too early and the bees then ignore the other frames for those in the shallow box overhead.
Think what the queen will find now the excluder has stopped her access to the top box. Less than 50% of the laying space she had? You need to get those brood frames drawn out

How do I get them to concentrate on drawing the brood frames out?

 

[Poly Hive]

As I understand it this colony is housed in a brood box and a super yet has only brood on 6 brood frames and how many super frames if any? Is this right?

PH

 

[Mwsedgwick]

As I understand it this colony is housed in a brood box and a super yet has only brood on 6 brood frames and how many super frames if any? Is this right?

PH

Brood box has a full set of frames but some not drawn out yet.

Hoping they will focus on drawing out brood box frames now I've restricted queen accessing super??

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Keep your existing standard box with frames but take the shallow (what you are calling a super) off and let the bees grow to at least 7 or 8 frames in just the brood box...and those frames will obviously need to be drawn out...when you get coverage of 7 to 8 then you might add add the shallow as a super (with a QX between) when you feel there is sufficient activity to see honey on the edges of this box. Sounds like you are ways off this yet...

Are you in a rural or urban area? You might want to consider feeding 1:1 syrup if there is not much of a flow so they can get more frames drawn...

 

[Murox]

It takes around six weeks from an egg being laid until the worker has become a foraging field bee, and you need a brood box full of bees (7-8 frames full of bees) before placing the first super. Don't expect to take much honey at all if any from them this year.
Ideally your first super should be drawn comb, foundation does not give the bees any more room until the cells have been drawn out and warm temperatures and a good honey flow are needed for this.
If you have some drawn comb you can mix it with foundation in the supers. The drawn comb should be placed on the outside against the super walls and the foundation in the middle where the heat from the brood chamber is the greatest - the warmth helps the bees drawing the foundation.
If you do not have any drawn comb then make sure the super has a full compliment of frames.