Brood + Super question

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Thanks for the replies. Pleased to hear it shouldn't be an issue.
Stupid question but what do people mean by 'enough space in the brood box'?

I have 2/3 frames in there that haven't been formed yet plus 2 empty with no eggs.
Queen has laid nice brood pattern in others with both fresh eggs and capped

There are two facets to answering that question.
The first is the situation where the bees are allowed to backfill the BC with stores.
A necessary thing in winter prep it is 'harmfull' when allowed on Establishment
or Expansion - your story is around Establishment.
The second is the development you look to ask on in encouraging the queen
to lay. Begin with looking at the BC as a nursery, nothing else. In the nursery
there is the broodnest/"brood pattern"(BN), an area of combs the bees will cycle
the queen through at the rate they choose depending on the environment around
the apiary.

Successfull startups use that environmental factor, anything else is a roll of the dice.

The usual lateral football (Union/League) shaped BN has to then be changed in
forcing the bees to expand the BN to fill the BC, drawing all combs.
There exist a number of paths in getting this done, I layout our preference. OMMV

There exists a "warm side(WS) cold side(CS)" formation of combs in every beehive.
The concept is to use this in pushing the BN towards the WM by adding a new frame
between the last BN frame on the WM and it's neighbour... this moves the BN laterally
towards the CS. The manipulation is repeated until the box is packed with drawn combs.
When done, frames on the CS - only holding stores - are then used to insert on the WS,
again pushing the BN laterally towards the CS yet expanding the new lay of the BN
towards the WM. When bees have capped off stores in the BC it is these frames which
are selected to move up into the super.
Where the choice is to not run full depth (FD) as supers these capped off fames are
archived to be fed back in winter or those times when the BN naturally shrinks, forage
being at low levels.
Running double mediums (ideals/manley/wsp) boxes or worse, triple, requires the same
technique but at one level at a time, get the lower filled first then work on the upper.
Depending on flows this could require simultaneous shift of frames in both levels to
get the BN to move uniformly. At no time under *any* circumstance insert drawn or new
foundation into the central area of the BN. Bees own the Plan of lay, interrupting that by
splitting the real estate may not seem a big deal to the doer but bees see it way differently
and usually abandon or shrink the extents of the BN where new work is placed centrally.
Got it?

Bill
 
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How do I get them to concentrate on drawing the brood frames out?
That is your dilemma now that the super is on and if you remove it? How much brood is in that shallow box? You will have to wait for all brood to emerge before you can take it away and with laying restricted, your bees may decide swarming is a better option.
Not a fan of brood and a half but I'd be inclined to put the shallow underneath and put the foundation either side of your brood.
 
My mentor has longstroth hives he can keep them I value my back .

A full langstorth brood box is only marginally heavier than a full national, so double brood langstroth vs double brood national is neither here nor there. I suppose you're running 14x12 or jumbo lang then...
 
OP? I asked you how many frames had brood, not how many were drawn out. Two different things. So how many brood frames have brood and how many super frames have brood?

As for brood and a half being jolly hocky sticks no it's not. It's potentially a nightmare as there is no compatibility between the two frames. Brood will not fit super and the super frames leave a big gap in a brood box which the bees will happily fill with drone brood.

You seem to be just starting out so would you buy a car drawn by a horse due to having no engine? Probably not unless seriously excentric, so why buy into a ------- system then?

PH
 
OP? I asked you how many frames had brood, not how many were drawn out. Two different things. So how many brood frames have brood and how many super frames have brood?

As for brood and a half being jolly hocky sticks no it's not. It's potentially a nightmare as there is no compatibility between the two frames. Brood will not fit super and the super frames leave a big gap in a brood box which the bees will happily fill with drone brood.

You seem to be just starting out so would you buy a car drawn by a horse due to having no engine? Probably not unless seriously excentric, so why buy into a ------- system then?

PH

Bit cruel don't you think?
 
OP? I asked you how many frames had brood, not how many were drawn out. Two different things. So how many brood frames have brood and how many super frames have brood?

As for brood and a half being jolly hocky sticks no it's not. It's potentially a nightmare as there is no compatibility between the two frames. Brood will not fit super and the super frames leave a big gap in a brood box which the bees will happily fill with drone brood.


PH

Really..
So my brood and a half Langstroths on 8+8 frames have no brood in the super and the space is completely filled by drone brood..
and my 12 frame double stack nucs suffer the same issue as well.. obviously.
 
Not cruel at all. Its a bodge system always has been. Like all systems, there are those who are willing to put up with it for what they perceive as advantages which suit them.

But that is taking the individual case and saying whoo hoo it suits all. It don't if you are honest. The incompatibility issue is a pain. Always has been. So why start out with a disadvantage? Would you advise the OP to run Lang nat and Commercial? I doubt it and this is the same issue writ smaller.

Be honest.

PH
 
Not cruel at all. Its a bodge system always has been. Like all systems, there are those who are willing to put up with it for what they perceive as advantages which suit them.

But that is taking the individual case and saying whoo hoo it suits all. It don't if you are honest. The incompatibility issue is a pain. Always has been. So why start out with a disadvantage? Would you advise the OP to run Lang nat and Commercial? I doubt it and this is the same issue writ smaller.

Be honest.

PH
It's common locally to run brood/half , which is how I started,three years on it's been a ball ache not being able to manipulate frames boxes the way I've wanted to and hopefully by the end of the season I'll be back to single brood or double and most definitely using QE to stop this happening .
It's ok if you've got one or two colony's but anymore than that and it gets very messy and slot of hard work.
Trust me I've learnt the hard way.
 
Yes it seems to occur in certain areas and as "they" do it the beginners think its the best way to go..... but in reality, it's a real avoidable pain. TBH in my experience, if a colony needs one and a half in truth they can cope happily with double. Don't let the people say otherwise. "Oh that's too big" not if you know how to work the brood nest it's not, and there is the major issue, people do not know how to work the BB. Nor are they taught to do so as the teachers are clueless too.

PH
 
@PH
"as the teachers are clueless too."
Carnt argue against that... way way too many thinking Honey -
n0t Bees.
Free Clue?
IF you cannot jam upwards of 60K bees into a Lang FD do not bother
signing on to any pollination contract. Period.
/eyes right/

Bill
 
It's common locally to run brood/half , which is how I started,three years on it's been a ball ache not being able to manipulate frames boxes the way I've wanted to and hopefully by the end of the season I'll be back to single brood or double and most definitely using QE to stop this happening .

It's ok if you've got one or two colony's but anymore than that and it gets very messy and slot of hard work.

Trust me I've learnt the hard way.
Ive elected for this season to try brood and a half for 6 of mine with 2 others on double. So far ive been fine but see hiw it goes over the course of a full 12 months. There are a lot leavers and remainers in this subject so Im going to try it out as I am atrracted to the Wally Shaw logic more than anything...

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
Your problem with brood and 1/2 is you simply cannot manage the colony size and growth through brood manipulations.
For example in spring many queens are reluctant to lay in colder lower box, so you move frames of sealed brood down and drawn empty frames up so queen can always lay at maximum rate.

This time of year they are reluctant to draw new foundation in lower box, so you move sealed down and undrawn up. etc.
 

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