Brood size options, 14x12 or Commercial?

[Birds&Bees]

Views wanted...I've tried searching the forum but couldn't find anything.

For many years I have been using standard national brood boxes, but I'm starting to find that these don't create enough brood space, especially when finding the first super full of pollen and all frames full of brood. Also I don't really want to move to brood and a half, due to the increased number of frames to deal with.

So my options as I see it......

1. Move to a national 14x12, by using 14x12 eke's. Can you also get eke's for nuc boxes? Also I was wondering why do the eke's fit on the top of the brood box and not at the bottom?

2. Move to Commercial Brood Boxes. Clearly I would have to replace all brood boxes and nucs, so possibly more expensive.

3. Move to Commercial size frames using a Hamilton converter. Would have to replace Nuc's but at least save cost on having to replace the brood boxes.

What have other people done and what are the advantages / disadvantages.

 

[clv101]

Normal national brood has 50,000 worker cells, commercial 70,500 and 14x12 72,000 cells.

Moving to 14x12, with ekes seems like the lowest cost approach. Over the next few years can gradually replace with 14x12 boxes. Ekes are very easy to make yourself. I prefer the long lugs on national frames.

 

[flemage]

I have a commercial hive but like the options that double brood on national gives me and the long frame lugs.

Have you considerd the double brood if needed?

 

[itma]

Views wanted...I've tried searching the forum but couldn't find anything.

Really?
This is a bit of an FAQ ...

... Move to a national 14x12, by using 14x12 eke's. Can you also get eke's for nuc boxes? Also I was wondering why do the eke's fit on the top of the brood box and not at the bottom? ...

Depends on your nuc. Pains poly, yes.
Maisem**** do a cedar one that goes under the National brood box. Simples.
/ and not hard to replicate for a woodworker.

14x12 frame converters are a nice idea that doesn't work at all well for drawn frames. (Thanks to Queens59 for helping me convince myself!) And not worthwhile for new frames.
I haven't found the wild comb extensions too difficult to handle.

 

[Poly Hive]

Youu could deal with the cost by selling off your Nats with bees in.

Also you could consider moving to Langstroth.

PH

 

[jackbee]

Simplest and cheapest would be ekes but you would have problem of wild comb off the bottom of the frames until you swap them out over time.

This would potentially lead to an increase in drone laying as that's where they tend to build drone cells as far as I have been led to understand (caveat - someone more experiended may be along to conform/deny that in a while )

 

[Alabamaeee]

On the upside they could make a good drone trap, just cut off the drone brood and discard with all the varroa that have inhabited the cells

I am slowly moving to 14X12 from cedar commercials, and so far the pains poly is working well for me.

 

[george]

Although the more expensive approach I would go with a purchased eke . The reason being is if you make your own and you dont have access to WRC it will sit at the bottom of the hive in all weathers and rot out .
With a shop bought one it sits under the roof out of the wet .
G

 

[Foxylad]

There is little difference between 14x12 and commercial. Both have pros and cons.

I have hamilton convertors, but never used them going for nationals to commercials. Either shook swarming in the spring or banmaire when there is a flow on.

I run both national and commercials but will pick a commercial hive with commercial supers every time. There is far less trouble with swarming and over winter on a single brood box. I have little and no use for commercial nucs as the swarm cells produced tend to be supersedure cells.

Choose a format and stick to it.

 

[sherwood]

When I took the decision to move to commercial from national it was not just to do with the increase in brood size but also the ease of building a commercial box ie 4 peices of wood as opposed to 8. This meant that not only were the boxes easier to build they took less time and were cheaper to make.
I did not dump my National kit, I manufactured Hamilton convertors which convert the National box to a commercial box and allow you to have 10 frames rather than the 11 you would have in a pucka commercial box. This works wonderfully for me I have about 5 of these boxes together with about 20 full commercial boxes. Occasionally when I need a National box I undo 2 screws and I have a national box available.
If you are thinking of changing boxes you might consider swapping to top space as I did.

 

[Walrus]

Views wanted...I've tried searching the forum but couldn't find anything.

For many years I have been using standard national brood boxes, but I'm starting to find that these don't create enough brood space, especially when finding the first super full of pollen and all frames full of brood. Also I don't really want to move to brood and a half, due to the increased number of frames to deal with.

So my options as I see it......

1. Move to a national 14x12, by using 14x12 eke's. Can you also get eke's for nuc boxes? Also I was wondering why do the eke's fit on the top of the brood box and not at the bottom?

2. Move to Commercial Brood Boxes. Clearly I would have to replace all brood boxes and nucs, so possibly more expensive.

3. Move to Commercial size frames using a Hamilton converter. Would have to replace Nuc's but at least save cost on having to replace the brood boxes.

What have other people done and what are the advantages / disadvantages.

I would firstly try going to "double brood" with Nationals to see how that goes. Even though a single 14x12 is theoretically big enough for a prolific queen I'm not so sure. It could be worth a try for a year to see how it goes?
There is an old system that looks good for Nationals here:
http://www.cheshire-bka.co.uk/Articles/CheshireSystemOfBeekeeping.php

 

[susbees]

Excellent post Sherwood

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ely]

If I were you I would get 14 x 12s. That way if you ever want to go down the poly route you can buy 14 x12 poly hives that are compatible with your existing equipment. Commercials are not available in poly. I went commercial when I first started. I wish I didn't because now any new hives I buy are 14 x 12s polys that are not compatible with my commercials. No big deal really, I have two commercial hives and two commercial empty nuc boxes for artificial swarms. If one hive gets in trouble I can help it with the other. Although, if my polyhive gets in trouble it will be hard to help it until I have another.

It saves a lot of grief having all compatible equipment and you may as well have the type with a poly option

 

[susbees]

Commercials are not available in poly

Yes they sort of are...I have two poly Commercial nucs for trapouts. Solidly made.

Commercial frames are less prone to sagging in warm weather....our Apiary Day in May was 25 deg C in the shade. Happens sometimes....

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[farbee]

If you are thinking of changing boxes you might consider swapping to top space as I did.


Sorry to jump in but what is the advantage of top bee space?

 

[Poly Hive]

Faster to work.

PH

 

[sherwood]

If you are thinking of changing boxes you might consider swapping to top space as I did.


Sorry to jump in but what is the advantage of top bee space?

Any one that has had bottom bee space will tell you that when you fit a crownboard,QE, or additional super that you stand a good chance of sqashing or crushing the bees, this is because the bees on top of the frames sit proud of the box and are therefore without extra care liable to said crushing. Top space hives have a bee space above the frames, therefore any bees on the top of frames do not protrude above the top of the box and cannot be decapitated or crushed.

You can still of course crush those bees that are on top of walls of the box.

 

[farbee]

Any one that has had bottom bee space will tell you that when you fit a crownboard,QE, or additional super that you stand a good chance of sqashing or crushing the bees, this is because the bees on top of the frames sit proud of the box and are therefore without extra care liable to said crushing. Top space hives have a bee space above the frames, therefore any bees on the top of frames do not protrude above the top of the box and cannot be decapitated or crushed.

You can still of course crush those bees that are on top of walls of the box.

Thanks. That makes sense but why does anybody sell or use bottom space?
Also does all equipment for a hive have to be bottom or top space or are they interchangable? I am guessing they cannot because to top of frames in one box would sit directly on top of another.

 

[Ely]

Ah, fair enough

 

[itma]

Any one that has had bottom bee space will tell you that when you fit a crownboard,QE, or additional super that you stand a good chance of sqashing or crushing the bees, this is because the bees on top of the frames sit proud of the box and are therefore without extra care liable to said crushing. Top space hives have a bee space above the frames, therefore any bees on the top of frames do not protrude above the top of the box and cannot be decapitated or crushed. ...

Thing is, there is (or should be) space under the crownboard, super and QE that you are adding to your standard bottom-beespace National.
/ I really, really, really don't like the unframed cheapo metal sheets that so many people use as QEs on Nationals. They start off resting on the frame topbars, but are soon horribly bedded in (and on) wax plus prop. Its so much more civilised (for bees and keeper) to have a proper beespace between the topbars and QE - which can be achieved with a framed QE on a "bottom beespace" hive. You don't have to change the hive!

Pros love top beespace, saying they can throw boxes around faster. Me, I'm not fully convinced. Or wanting to shift the boxes faster - I'm supposed to be enjoying doing it!
The difference is only in respect of bees poking out between the frames - and only in the area brushed by the box walls as you square them up.
With top beespace (zero clearance below the frames) you cannot see whether any bees are 'at risk', trying to hide in the dark under the frames. Out of sight, and out of mind.
With bottom beespace you can at least see the vulnerable bees up top and drive them down with smoke or icing sugar.
I'm not fully convinced that its truly of mega importance (unless you have a burning desire to use flat QEs and crownboards). Does the Queen hide on top of or under the frames? So, where would you like to leave space?

This discussion comes up quite often. But there are thousands of hives using each way. One may be slightly better, but there's more difference to the colony from loads of other factors.

Farbee is quite right that mixing the two is the principal danger. And checking the beespace is one of the most important things when buying used kit. "Improved" non-standard kit shows up unsignposted at auctions. Repeatedly, I suspect!