Brood size options, 14x12 or Commercial?

[farbee]

Thing is, there is (or should be) space under the crownboard, super and QE that you are adding to your standard bottom-beespace National.
/ I really, really, really don't like the unframed cheapo metal sheets that so many people use as QEs on Nationals. They start off resting on the frame topbars, but are soon horribly bedded in (and on) wax plus prop. Its so much more civilised (for bees and keeper) to have a proper beespace between the topbars and QE - which can be achieved with a framed QE on a "bottom beespace" hive. You don't have to change the hive!

Pros love top beespace, saying they can throw boxes around faster. Me, I'm not fully convinced. Or wanting to shift the boxes faster - I'm supposed to be enjoying doing it!
The difference is only in respect of bees poking out between the frames - and only in the area brushed by the box walls as you square them up.
With top beespace (zero clearance below the frames) you cannot see whether any bees are 'at risk', trying to hide in the dark under the frames. Out of sight, and out of mind.
With bottom beespace you can at least see the vulnerable bees up top and drive them down with smoke or icing sugar.
I'm not fully convinced that its truly of mega importance (unless you have a burning desire to use flat QEs and crownboards). Does the Queen hide on top of or under the frames? So, where would you like to leave space?

This discussion comes up quite often. But there are thousands of hives using each way. One may be slightly better, but there's more difference to the colony from loads of other factors.

Farbee is quite right that mixing the two is the principal danger. And checking the beespace is one of the most important things when buying used kit. "Improved" non-standard kit shows up unsignposted at auctions. Repeatedly, I suspect!

Thanks very useful and informative.

 

[Birds&Bees]

Many thanks for all your views.....time for me to decide.

 

[alanf]

When top vs bottom came up before, ITLD explained that top space was easier to handle quickly because if a frame was not sitting flat (wax, propolis or whatever) it did not need scraping and reseating before placing the next box. There's a bit more tolerance that takes time to fix for a bottom space box.

I suspect that topspace is also marginally cheaper for large operators in that cover boards and queen excluders do not have to be more than flat sheets. Unframed queen excluders are easier to use on top space because they are mostly propolised to the super above. I have seen them lifted off without separating the excluder from the super for most inspections. An unframed queen excluder propolised to the top of brood frames has to be separated every time to see the frames below. With hundreds of hives, saving money on framing and a few seconds an inspection counts.

On the other hand, bottom bee space does allow clearing the top of frames before placing a super in case it is not aligned perfectly. Clearing the bottom of frames is harder for a top space box. Removing boxes from bottom space hives, it's also easier to stack some on a flat board if they are not going back in the same order.

The main point is not to mix in the same stack or you get zero or double spaces. That is much easier if all your boxes are one type and the default from the big suppliers of nationals is bottom space, so that's what most small scale keepers use and are happy with. It's easier to get kit in a hurry if it's off the shelf rather than special order. There's nothing to stop you having bottom space hives and top space nuc boxes.

 

[scuttlefish]

The main point is not to mix in the same stack or you get zero or double spaces. That is much easier if all your boxes are one type and the default from the big suppliers of nationals is bottom space, so that's what most small scale keepers use and are happy with.

Be careful if you buy complete colonies & (homemade) hives as well - all my shop-bought gear is bottom bee space but there're a couple of top bee space supers in the full rigs I bought earlier this year, which mixed make for a bu**er to work with and converting them over is top of my list for winter jobs!

 

[mbc]

14 x 12 's are a pig to work compared to 16x10 though a standard national is easier than either IMO.
Similarly the bees find it easiest to draw the combs in that order, standard national easiest, then the commercial 16x10 and then the 14x12. Looking through other peoples bees I have seen 14x12 fr4ames that seem to go partially drawn from season to season until they're quite horrible though relatively new. Maybe that says more about our crap nectar flows than deficiency of the frame size but its the same end result
The argument that top bee space is better because a flat excluder can stay on the bottom of the supers makes me cringe, to me that sounds like a recipe for lost or crushed queens. I always check my excluder for her madge before diving into the brood box and its surprising how many times shes on there, presumably exploring the grid looking for a way through to lay up the supers !

 

[itma]

14 x 12 's are a pig to work compared to 16x10 though a standard national is easier than either IMO. ...

One major difference is the lug length.
Commercial (16x10) is short lug; ordinary National and 14x12 have long lugs.
I find the longer lugs more pleasant to handle. Your mileage may vary!

Someone on the 'useless gadget' thread nominated frame lifters - the one-handed 'tongs' for grabbing a frame topbar centrally.
The only person I know who LOVES his frame lifters uses short-lug frames/hives. Not a coincidence, I believe!


I (and I think most other folk that have tried it) find 14x12 easier to work than a multi-brood (&half, double, ...) National. The comparison with a single-brood National is not the point!

 

[susbees]

One major difference is the lug length.
Commercial (16x10) is short lug; ordinary National and 14x12 have long lugs.
I find the longer lugs more pleasant to handle. Your mileage may vary!

I have had hand strength and dexterity issues due to meds for a while and don't have small hands, yet I have no issues with handling 16x10 frames - it's the gloves that make the difference....nitriles 95% of the time and plastochromes with gauntlet if something must be done and they're guaranteed crabby (weather, bad mating, too late in the day). I find Nat frames fiddly and 14x12 take way too long to come out of the box .

 

[alanf]

I (and I think most other folk that have tried it) find 14x12 easier to work than a multi-brood (&half, double, ...) National

I know of advocates for pretty much every combination you could think of (that's beekeepers for you ).

 

[Haughton Honey]

I know of advocates for pretty much every combination you could think of (that's beekeepers for you ).

I agree with that entirely!

My typical production colony set-up is a custom-built, lightweight 1 3/4" deep insulated roof, a 3" eke, a customised 18 5/16" x 18 5/16" crown board with bee space on one side and centred (covered!) 1 3/4" feed hole, a Commercial brood body with 11 x 16x10 frames and a dummy board and a customised OMF.