Brood Pattern and Queen Quality

[Walrus]

I don't know if any of you super clever queen breeders have read this research:
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/10/1/12
which I'm just beginning to go through?

They found that: "the sealed brood patterns of queens from poor-brood colonies improved significantly after they were placed into colonies with good patterns, suggesting an influence of colony environment on the sealed brood pattern rather than solely the queens’ egg-laying capacity"

The conclusion was: "Brood pattern alone was an insufficient proxy of queen quality. In future studies, it is important to define the specific symptoms of queen failure being studied in order to address issues in queen health"

 

[B+.]

The conclusion was: "Brood pattern alone was an insufficient proxy of queen quality. In future studies, it is important to define the specific symptoms of queen failure being studied in order to address issues in queen health"

I hadn't read the paper, but, it seems like common sense to me, particularly if you are selecting for hygiene.
As beekeepers, we like to think that everything happens according to the book, but, it seldom does.

 

[Finman]

The conclusion was: "Brood pattern alone was an insufficient proxy of queen quality."

Amen

 

[Michael Palmer]

Okay, I can see that. What happens to the queen quality after some time, once the bees of the colony are from the queen with the original poor pattern. I would say she will, again, have a poor pattern.

In the spring at dandelion, when we reverse brood chambers, we equalize brood strength in hives. Colonies with 4 or 5 or less combs of brood get additional combs from strong colonies. If these colonies aren't requeened when queens become available, they wind up in about the same condition as they would have been had nothing been done earlier in the season.

 

[Walrus]

Okay, I can see that. What happens to the queen quality after some time, once the bees of the colony are from the queen with the original poor pattern. I would say she will, again, have a poor pattern.

In the spring at dandelion, when we reverse brood chambers, we equalize brood strength in hives. Colonies with 4 or 5 or less combs of brood get additional combs from strong colonies. If these colonies aren't requeened when queens become available, they wind up in about the same condition as they would have been had nothing been done earlier in the season.

Yeah, good point & it's shame they didn't test that. The new queen in this study is only given 24 days so the workers are from the old queen.

They do say, " It is possible that if we had left the queen in the colony and sampled after 6 weeks—when the worker bees would have been progeny of the transferred queen—that we would have been able to see if the designation of poor or good brood patterns held with the new work force."

So it seems likely that a poor sealed brood pattern in healthy hives may be more to do with the workers than the laying pattern of the queen...but the workers are the product of the queen, so in the end it is down to her.

 

[SDM]

Okay, I can see that. What happens to the queen quality after some time, once the bees of the colony are from the queen with the original poor pattern. I would say she will, again, have a poor pattern.

In the spring at dandelion, when we reverse brood chambers, we equalize brood strength in hives. Colonies with 4 or 5 or less combs of brood get additional combs from strong colonies. If these colonies aren't requeened when queens become available, they wind up in about the same condition as they would have been had nothing been done earlier in the season.

How often have you left such colonies to find out ? Because if these "weaker" queens are being replaced during the season, then the new queens are going into a disadvantaged colony for some weeks. The new "better" queen seems unlikely to have made up the shortfall by close of season and the colony would go into and out of winter again smaller than the strong ones and by your reasoning be marked for early replacement when you equalise in spring. You would also be assuming that the queen would be the only factor affecting spring condition.

 

[Michael Palmer]

How often have you left such colonies to find out ? Because if these "weaker" queens are being replaced during the season, then the new queens are going into a disadvantaged colony for some weeks. The new "better" queen seems unlikely to have made up the shortfall by close of season and the colony would go into and out of winter again smaller than the strong ones and by your reasoning be marked for early replacement when you equalise in spring. You would also be assuming that the queen would be the only factor affecting spring condition.

I've left plenty until July...Lime flow ends mid-July. Remember these colonies were boosted with combs of brood. Population is good, so colonies aren't failing. Not making much honey though. Not like the good ones. 40 pounds compared to 100-200. The new queen isn't going into a disadvantaged colony. Just a colony that needed help, got help, built a population. Then at later date, got requeened.

These colonies could be left alone. They'll build up and go through next winter, and what have I got? The same colony as before. Winter with small cluster. Needs help in the spring. Doesn't make an average crop. And, those that requeen themselves, what have I got? The same colony once again.

Perhaps the queen isn't the only factor affecting spring condition. When compared to other colonies in the apiary, it's obvious to me. Who else are you going to blame? What else do you have control over?

Changing the queen is key.

 

[SDM]

Who else are you going to blame? What else do you have control over?

Changing the queen is key.

Drifting, mite levels, disease present the previous autumn could be affecting worker performance. The age of the workers( which would be down to the queen shutting down early but you still may be culling before she shows what she can do). Your equalised colonies would still be disadvantaged for weeks as the balance of worker ages would be wrong for some time, same numver of bees maybe but far less foragers, which could
Well explain the honey shortfall just on the shortsge of foraging age workers.
Just things off the top of my head, id considered brood pattern a fairly reliable guide until this morning. In fairness it probably still is but as the study says not on its own.

 

[domino]

Perhaps the queen isn't the only factor affecting spring condition. When compared to other colonies in the apiary, it's obvious to me. Who else are you going to blame? What else do you have control over?

Changing the queen is key.

This is sensible, we can only control some aspects of the colonies - queens are a big lever.

 

[mbc]

Epigenetics and beneficial flora will play a big part in this, it's a time honoured technique to boost struggling colonies with a frame of brood, bees and stores from a boomer and it's pretty obvious it's not just the added bee that brings them on but also the addition of a frame from a healthy nest with all its life.

 

[SDM]

Epigenetics and beneficial flora will play a big part in this, it's a time honoured technique to boost struggling colonies with a frame of brood, bees and stores from a boomer and it's pretty obvious it's not just the added bee that brings them on but also the addition of a frame from a healthy nest with all its life.

But Michael is saying that this time honoured technique ultimately does nothing and any rebound is temporary at best .

 

[Beefriendly]

"You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear". No matter how you disguise it.

 

[Eyeman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbc View Post
Epigenetics and beneficial flora will play a big part in this, it's a time honoured technique to boost struggling colonies with a frame of brood, bees and stores from a boomer and it's pretty obvious it's not just the added bee that brings them on but also the addition of a frame from a healthy nest with all its life.

SDM says
But Michael is saying that this time honoured technique ultimately does nothing and any rebound is temporary at best .

Those of us that have been adding/moving brood in spring to equalise colonies know it works well

 

[B+.]

Those of us that have been adding/moving brood in spring to equalise colonies know it works well

Artificially reinforcing the colony can be very deceiving for queen evaluation though. However, if you're just after maximum honey and aren't bothered about which queens to propagate, adding brood is ok

 

[Finman]

.
I manipulate in spring hives' build up with pollen patty feeding, eletric heating and removing emerging brood frames from strong colonies.

Idea is that all queens can use their laying capasity to make workers for summer.

Biggest hives are best to heat with electric and feed with patty. Small colonies like a 4 frame cluster cannot make much new brood. But a small cluster may have very good queen, when it gets a good bee gang.

 

[SDM]

Artificially reinforcing the colony can be very deceiving for queen evaluation though. However, if you're just after maximum honey and aren't bothered about which queens to propagate, adding brood is ok

In the short term for sure but, not too serious over a year surely. Personally i think equalizing does often provide queens/colonies with the boost they need to catch up to the best but certainly not always. Damned if i can decide how often it works or doesn't. Something to look at more closely in years to come. I think the truth is that although I'll have recorded the donor hive no. And how many frames. I doubt that ive paid enough attention to how many underperforming hives at the end of the season had been amongst those needing help at the beginning.

 

[Finman]

In the short term for sure but, not too serious over a year surely. Personally i think equalizing does often provide queens/colonies with the boost they need to catch up to the best but certainly not always. Damned if i can decide how often it works or doesn't. Something to look at more closely in years to come.

When you get a colony strong early, it works always.

I do not equalize colonies. It is too hevy act to spoil best colonies' foraging power. I take brood combs only so that strong colony does not stop its build up.

Lets look strong colony. It makes two boxes brood, and it is not wise to drop brood size to one box.

When a colony goes by it its own, colony must have one box of brood. It takes one 6 weeks that such colony can forage and ofter sumer is then over.
Such colony can serve as home bees during main yield when joined to another colony, which does not have brood.

.

 

[Eyeman]

Artificially reinforcing the colony can be very deceiving for queen evaluation though. However, if you're just after maximum honey and aren't bothered about which queens to propagate, adding brood is ok

Adding brood has no influence on evaluating which queen to use for breeding. Just need to keep some records. Shirely you should know that?

 

[Finman]

Adding brood has no influence on evaluating which queen to use for breeding. Just need to keep some records. Shirely you should know that?

Everyone can use his brain. If some queen seems good, you may/can take offsprings. It is your own business.

 

[SDM]

Adding brood has no influence on evaluating which queen to use for breeding. Just need to keep some records. Shirely you should know that?

Of course it does, every value thereafter is changed by it., by how much would be guesswork at best.