brood nest size

[greywolf]

Hello.

Hope you don't mind another beginners question but after reading up on brood nest size I am more confused than ever.

At the moment my hive is ready to receive a 5 bar nucleus this season and the intention was to go for a brood and a half. The nucleus will be headed by a carniolan queen which I have been told will be a very prolific layer.

Learning about the bees and getting them through there first season is a priority so the brood nest can be as large as the bees want to make it. As surplus honey is not a priority would it wise to go for a double brood or perhaps even more as in the rose hive system?

 

[oliver90owner]

As the Rose system has smaller boxes than even a standard deep National box, they are, indeed, likely to need more boxes for brooding. I would think my 14 x 12s are about equivalent to two Rose boxes (someone might know the depth of a Rose box) and quite often the queen needs some extra laying space in springtime/early summer.

Feral bees nests do not have Q/Es, so why use one if the honey is not going to be harvested?

If there is not enough brooding space the swarming instinct is likely to kick in?

Dependent on strain and time of year and weather and forage and etc....your colony may or may not need extra space, so it all depends.....

RAB

 

[Mike a]

Bees like to feel confined and warm.
To start with they will need time to build up to fill the other 5 frames before you will need to think about giving them another brood or super to make up the double or brood and a half. Follow the advice of friends or a mentor to build them up to fill your hive and draw out the other frames before adding more space.

 

[Rosti]

would it wise to go for a double brood or perhaps even more as in the rose hive system?

As a build on o90o's post the rose hive system varies from a trad / national / lang / etc box systems simply by virtue of all the boxes being the same depth (traditionally you have brood depth and super depth). The use of multiple boxes for brood can be employed with any hive type, granted the rose system manipulates box locations rather than employs a QE.

If this is your first season then please consider the fact that too much room and too many un-drawn frames will be as much a hinderence as too little space once the colony gets going. You'll have loads of undrawn foundation and a small brood nest to start. Both need warmth. With limited bees to create this warmth the smaller space as they grow (no more than a couple of 'spare' undrawn frames helps and the warmth maintained also makes it easier for drawing out and creating wax.

As a (probably not uncommon) example I had one established hive last year that at its largest was on 2.5 Brood (14x12 + std BB) plus 4 supers - it did not swarm. Equally I had what looked like a prime swarm when it landed in may that never got beyond 7 14x12 frames (and was probably held back by me pushing it's space too quickly in retrospect). There is no standard formula, assess what they need at that time and provide it.

 

[RoofTops]

I could suggest you have bought a hive clearly too small for the bees but on a more practical note, I would let them fill the first brood box and then add another, no queen excluder. You may find, depending on when they arrive, that they struggle to fill and draw out the second brood box but assuming you feed them well in the autumn you will have a good basis for making increase next year. Two colonies are always recommended over a single colony.

I would avoid brood and a half at all costs - unless of course you are a member of the LMBADAPFO* club - in which case you will probably have a WBC as well.

* Let's Make Beekeeping As Difficult A Possible For Ourselves

PS: Most of the above not to be taken too seriously - except the bit about avoiding brood and a half.

 

[rae]

Brood size depends on strain of bee and local conditions. Carni queens are indeed generally prolific, not sure where you are in Wales, but the warmer and dryer you are (not likely in Wales!) the more prolific they will be.

I would not run a standard brood with a Carni queen. We started on standards and quickly realised that 14x12 was a better answer. 14x12 is enough - you can make the brood box bigger, but they will still swarm if they want to. Last year we had one hive moving to 14x12 from standard, at the point where they decided to swarm, they were running double brood: 14x12 + standard - you won't stop them.

Double brood (or brood and a half) is a pain in terms of knowing where the queen is and inspections. I wouldn't recommend it as a strategy, only in an emergency!

The points about "too much space" are very valid. A nuc won't do well in a cavernous box. Depending on when you get it, and what the conditions are like, it may fill a standard in the first year, it may not.

 

[greywolf]

Thanks for the response.

I should probably have been a little more specific in my post by saying that I have the usual starter national set-up with 1 standard brood and 2 supers.

I understand the principle of not offering the whole hive to the nucleus at once and will just add 2 frames at a time to the nucleus, using a follower board to section off the brood box and covering this with the crown board.

I had considered a 14x12 brood box but as the nucleus is on standard national deep frames opted for the same for the brood box. My query was really more about future planning and wether or not it was a good idea to use double brood rather than brood and a half. .

Regular swarming is a concern as I live in a semi urban area and don't have space for many hives to manage splits properly. Although It is, of course something I will have to deal with eventually.

I have been given to understand that a restricted brood nest could be one of the contributing factors in swarming so it followed that a larger brood may help, or, as some of you have pointed out, if am not worried about honey I could just leave out the QX for my first season untill I have a healthy colony

The idea of managing the national as a Rose hive seemed a possibility because the guy is a commercial honey producer and it works for him albeit with some lifting involved.

I have completed a course in beekeeping but it was some 2 years ago and my proposed mentor has moved so your help is much appreciated.

 

[rae]

Regardless of your brood set up, your bees will want to swarm eventually. You may delay their urge for a few weeks with a bigger brood capacity, but it will come. The trick with swarming is to catch the swarm cells before capping. With double brood....you've got a lot more frames to look though.

 

[Onge]

I would avoid brood and a half at all costs - unless of course you are a member of the LMBADAPFO* club - in which case you will probably have a WBC as well.

* Let's Make Beekeeping As Difficult A Possible For Ourselves

Haha I liked that bit.

 

[greywolf]

Haha I liked that bit.

So did I. Lets hope I can avoid doing just that.

 

[Rosti]

LMBADAPFO* club - in which case you will probably have a WBC as well.

Thats the sister oragnisation to the more snappily named LMBAEP# - in which case you own a Beehaus

Members of both clubs use a beehaus fitted with lifts



* Let's Make Beekeeping As Difficult A Possible For Ourselves
# Lets make beekeeping as expensive as possible

 

[Poly Hive]

The bottom line here is you do not have enough kit.

Invest in another brood box with enough frames to suit, and dinna forget the foundation.

Also another 2 super though I doubt you will need it in your first season. However it pays to be prepared so....frames and foundation to suit as well.

Your aim if I may suggest it is not so much honey this year but to have two good colonies going into winter in October.

Enjoy your season.

PH

 

[greywolf]

The bottom line here is you do not have enough kit.

Invest in another brood box with enough frames to suit, and dinna forget the foundation.

Also another 2 super though I doubt you will need it in your first season. However it pays to be prepared so....frames and foundation to suit as well.

Your aim if I may suggest it is not so much honey this year but to have two good colonies going into winter in October.

Enjoy your season.

PH

Bump! That's me landing back on earth.

That all makes perfect sense.

Too much reading can be very confusing for a newbee, thanks for guiding me back on track. Again!

 

[Haughton Honey]

The method I find best during the 'season' is to run brood, super(s), brood - with Queen excluders either side of the supers.

Move capped brood every 9 days from the bottom box and replace them with emptied frames from the top brood box.

The Queen is always in the bottom box, making her easier to find, and the Queen excluders cut out the brace comb.

If you find supercedure cells in the top box when inspecting then either cut them out or use them for breeding new Queens if she's worthy.

Re-combine the two brood boxes ahead of Autumn feeding.