Brood nest size most commonly used in the UK

[bronfai]

Hello,
What is the size of brood nest most widely used in the UK? I do not care to give me that information volume in centilitres or total number of cells.

I am seeking the best brood nest size for my climate: rainy, short summers, not hot. And with vegetation that has little mellific potential. They are not valid for me models of the Mediterranean beekeeping, with short winters, and with large brood nests and where much honey is harvested.

I am seeking an sufficient size to hold the colony well a long winter, and in late spring it well take a short season of nectar and pollen. I have had problems this year with some hives with large brood nest: in late June were overcrowded brood, but in a few days of bad weather were left without food and starved many bees (perhaps 30% bees of the colony).

Specifically, I'm thinking if Dadant box will be enough for me (I think it has some 70,000 cells total)

 

[REDWOOD]

It's not an exact science, it all depends on your bees, some are very prolific and require a double brood whilst others will be quite happy in a single national of 50000 cells

 

[Finman]

.
That has no meaning what box you use. Dadant is not flexible in different size hives. Extracting honey needs a big machine.

You may use medium size box. 3 boxes are equal to 2 langstroths. Important is the weigh of a box which is full of honey. Brood boxes are always light, but filled with honey is different.

The ability to lay eggs depends on the queen and on its age.
.

 

[Finman]

It's not an exact science, it all depends on your bees, some are very prolific and require a double brood whilst others will be quite happy in a single national of 50000 cells

Move the excluder and you do not need those calculations. And those calculations are false because bees want to store pollen next to brood. Sometimes half of brood area is filled with pollen. I am very pleased, when such happens.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

The bee is more important than the bee hive.

The hive should be sized for the bee it houses.

There are 4 basic styles of hive in common use for honey production.

1. Box Hives - not legal in many countries, but they are the cheapest option to set up. I would not recommend any box hive designs though it is worth reading Quinby's description of managing them.

2. Topbar hives - commonly used in 3rd world countries where low cost is a primary consideration.

3. Horizontal Hives - Basically a topbar hive but equipped with frames that can be extracted. Look at the Jackson Horizontal Hive or the de Layens hive for some ideas.

4. Vertical stackable hives such as Langstroth, Dadant, British National, WBC, etc. There are good arguments as mentioned above to use shallow or medium boxes with Langstroth dimensions to keep weight manageable.

For your area, the square Dadant would be one option, especially if managed with 6 or 7 frames for brood instead of the full 12. This is a common management style used with square Dadant equipment in Germany. I can provide some links to discussions if you like. The square Dadant hive has capacity of 65 cubic liters. About 35 cubic liters are used for brood. This size hive is adequate for use year round.

The Langstroth hive is the most commonly available and easily adapted for your needs. It has about 42 cubic liters of space inside. One hive body won't be enough for your needs so plan on a deep and a shallow as standard configuration if you go this route.

You asked about cells. A colony needs about 100,000 cells to have enough room for brood and honey storage for winter.


finman, if you were that happy with pollen, you should have been gloriously happy with the black bees that are now extinct in your area. They crammed every corner and every empty cell full of pollen. Unfortunately, they had too many other flaws to be good bees for the beekeeper.

 

[Finman]

finman, if you were that happy with pollen, you should have been gloriously happy with the black bees that are now extinct in your area. They crammed every corner and every empty cell full of pollen. Unfortunately, they had too many other flaws to be good bees for the beekeeper.

I had 30 years those Black Devils. Thanks to varroa, it killed all. Varroa is my friend. After that beekeeping has been easy.

 

[B+.]

Specifically, I'm thinking if Dadant box will be enough for me (I think it has some 70,000 cells total)

What do other beekeepers in your area use?
A Dadant box can be very heavy and you may have trouble lifting it without help.
A better solution may be to simply add extra boxes and give them a bigger cavity when needed.
Are you using wooden hives or poly? This can make quite a difference to the amount of heat they need to generate to over-winter (and also in the amount of food they need).
I use poly hives like these http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744 but this is, by no means, typical of what others do.

 

[bronfai]

The bee is more important than the bee hive.

For your area, the square Dadant would be one option, especially if managed with 6 or 7 frames for brood instead of the full 12. This is a common management style used with square Dadant equipment in Germany. I can provide some links to discussions if you like.

I would appreciate you give me those links.

 

[oliver90owner]

The ability to lay eggs depends on the queen and on its age.

Have to disagree on that one. Other factors, such as available stores, forage and actual size of colony can all have an effect on the laying ability/opportunity of even the potentially productive queens. The workers can, and do, control her lay rate, dependent on how well they feed her. Just more to it than age for any particular quality of queen, although young queens generally give rise to better colony overwintering (less likely to become a drone layer as a simple example).

As for 'cubic litres'! Ha ha. A litre is exactly the same whether cubc, cuboid, spherical, or any other shape!

Hells bells! The poster is in Spain. They would never need 100k cells unless high in the mountains. Really b****y OTT. Mine need no more than 70k in my location.

 

[Fusion_power]

O90, the request was for information for a dry climate. Winter storage is not as important, but having honey stored for dry periods is. He is not soggy wet like much of the U.K. for long periods of time. He described highly prolific bees that starve during his dearth period.

 

[B+.]

He described highly prolific bees that starve during his dearth period.

Which may, in itself, be evidence that the bees he has are inappropriate to his area. Changing the style of equipment may not be the answer he is looking for.

 

[For want of a better word]

I had 30 years those Black Devils. Thanks to varroa, it killed all. Varroa is my friend. After that beekeeping has been easy.

Note for Beginners...
Those Black Devils that Finnie our dear old friend keeps harping on about were probably Russian Caucasion bees ... not known for their passive traits... see Finnies posts and pics of Russian beekeeperers dressed up in Black Bear suits to lure the bees away during honey robbing expeditions!

No relation to our endemic native black honey bee Apis mellifera mellifera
thank the Lord!!!

Yeghes da

 

[user 6228]

short rainy summers not so good forage- sounds a bit like Scotland's west coast.
That seems to put you in Western Spain in the hills near the Atlantic?

If so then smaller colonies in insulated boxes are probably the way to go.
This will mean the stores they have last longer when it gets cold or rains or lack of forage. Our bees in our insulated boxes seem to be able to stop laying at the end of flows. I dont know if that is the bee or the box. (bee type? some are butterscotch some are black )
The insulated boxes will also help if you get a very hot spell as you might at that lattitude despite the height and the Atlantic.

 

[B+.]

Note for Beginners...

Temprament is a trait which responds well to selection so beginners should not be swayed by such arguments. From what I see on this forum, keeping the bees alive from one year to another is much more relevant to most beginners.

 

[Teemore]

O90, the request was for information for a dry climate. Winter storage is not as important, but having honey stored for dry periods is. He is not soggy wet like much of the U.K. for long periods of time. He described highly prolific bees that starve during his dearth period.

Actually the OP stated: "I am seeking the best brood nest size for my climate: rainy, short summers, not hot. And with vegetation that has little mellific potential. They are not valid for me models of the Mediterranean beekeeping, with short winters, and with large brood nests and where much honey is harvested."

A frugal strain of bees that manages brood production in line with pollen and nectar income would be of some help to you. Would it make sense to use Langstroth Mediums for brood and honey storage to give you flexibility? You could then overwinter on single or double boxes as dictated by colony size and the amount of stores they need through the Winter.
Do you get any Autumn nectar flows in your area?

 

[Finman]

The ability to lay eggs depends on the queen and on its age.

Have to disagree on that one. Other factors, such as available stores, forage and actual size of colony can all have an effect on the laying ability/opportunity of even the potentially productive queens. The workers can, and do, control her lay rate, dependent on how well they feed her. Just more to it than age for any particular quality of queen, although young queens generally give rise to better colony overwintering (less likely to become a drone layer as a simple example).

As for 'cubic litres'! Ha ha. A litre is exactly the same whether cubc, cuboid, spherical, or any other shape!

Hells bells! The poster is in Spain. They would never need 100k cells unless high in the mountains. Really b****y OTT. Mine need no more than 70k in my location.

Oh dear your disagree.

I do not mind.

 

[user 6228]

The bee type for you is Apis mellifera iberiensis(spain) or something with a lot that in it rather than apis mellifera ligustica (italy). iberiensis is a quite close relative to Apis mellifera mellifera which does well in the West of Scotland. iberiensis will suit a goal of smaller colonies and intermittant forage.

 

[Hivemaker.]

iberiensis will suit a goal of smaller colonies and intermittant forage.

We have a member who could supply those no problem.

If its bees I highly recommend you stay well clear of Apis Mellifera Iberica, the most horrid bee I have ever had the displeasure of meeting.

 

[Finman]

.
How much room for brood?

When you have a queen, you will see it , what it does

I know a professional whose Italians has only 2 boxes. Another guy has 8 boxes with Italians. It depends what you breed and select.

.but it is better, if a beginner does not plan too much his goals. Not at least, that asks advices from UK to Spain.
.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

.
but it is better, if a beginner does not plan too much his goals. Not at least, that asks advices from UK to Spain.
.

Or Finland to the UK?