Brood frame spacing

[JamezF]

After having my Hoffman frames snorted at derisively by a long-term member of my local BKA where I was giving a talk last week (he apparently insists on the use of plastic ends), I have discovered that whilst most (UK) Hoffman frames seem to have 35mm (1⅜") spacing, Dadant frames appear to use 38mm (1½") and "plastic ends" are in between at 36mm (1 7/16"). I'd not come across this before, perhaps because I've always used Hoffman brood frames in National hives and never given it further thought. Is there some history to the difference in sizes? Was there some disagreement over the measurement of comb spacing (ie. midrib to midrib distance) in wild comb at some point?

As it happens I have a box full of wild comb. Perhaps I should measure it myself.

James

 

[Blunt Spike]

Have you looked at the spacing of frames when castellations are used? They may be different again lol.

 

[rolande]

Traditionally the spacing was ~1.5", that's what the national was designed for; 11x 1.5" frames. At some point the manufacturers changed to today's 35mm (I don't think there was ever an official change to the standard) presumably to pull in line with the usual langstroth spacing. That's why you can often 'squeeze' 12 modern frames into a national brood.

The one and half inch spacing is much nicer but it all seems to work.

 

[rolande]

Is there some history to the difference in sizes? Was there some disagreement over the measurement of comb spacing (ie. midrib to midrib distance) in wild comb at some point?

Not directly related to the practical reasons but... if you don't value your sanity there is a nice piece of three ended string that you can measure:

https://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Pete Little used to use castellations in the brood box to get the wider spacings, unless he could get hold of the wider Hoffman side bars

 

[Rory Fields]

Pete Little used to use castellations in the brood box to get the wider spacings, unless he could get hold of the wider Hoffman side bars

He hated OMF's too, I'm not disinclined to agree with him at present - in Northumberland they're frequently not drawing or at least not laying in the bottom 4th or 5th of the bb, despite them being well baffled from wind by 5' deep wooden lats. Any new bee books to recommend? I'm running short on reading material, cheers

 

[Newbeeneil]

After having my Hoffman frames snorted at derisively by a long-term member of my local BKA where I was giving a talk last week (he apparently insists on the use of plastic ends), I have discovered that whilst most (UK) Hoffman frames seem to have 35mm (1⅜") spacing, Dadant frames appear to use 38mm (1½") and "plastic ends" are in between at 36mm (1 7/16"). I'd not come across this before, perhaps because I've always used Hoffman brood frames in National hives and never given it further thought. Is there some history to the difference in sizes? Was there some disagreement over the measurement of comb spacing (ie. midrib to midrib distance) in wild comb at some point?

As it happens I have a box full of wild comb. Perhaps I should measure it myself.

James

National 11 space castellations are set the same as Dadant ie 38mm and used quite a lot in brood boxes in this backwater of West Sussex.

 

[rolande]

Another interesting reference is the Roger Pattison article on the Dave Cushman site:


http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/framespacing.html

 

[jarmo henttu]

If spacing is originally 35 mm, in 10 frame box 36 mm needs 10 mm more space.

 

[Moobee]

Another interesting reference is the Roger Pattison article on the Dave Cushman site:


http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/framespacing.html

Interesting article. I always use 10 frames in a super and space by eye and the bees draw lovely wide comb, rarely building brace comb in between.

 

[enrico]

After having my Hoffman frames snorted at derisively by a long-term member of my local BKA where I was giving a talk last week (he apparently insists on the use of plastic ends), I have discovered that whilst most (UK) Hoffman frames seem to have 35mm (1⅜") spacing, Dadant frames appear to use 38mm (1½") and "plastic ends" are in between at 36mm (1 7/16"). I'd not come across this before, perhaps because I've always used Hoffman brood frames in National hives and never given it further thought. Is there some history to the difference in sizes? Was there some disagreement over the measurement of comb spacing (ie. midrib to midrib distance) in wild comb at some point?

As it happens I have a box full of wild comb. Perhaps I should measure it myself.

James

The only reason I use plastic ends is my mish mash of frames but I am trying to get them all back to Hoffman. I doubt I will ever get there, The annoying thing with the plastic on the Hoffman frames is they fill the gap with propolis so in the end the Hoffman frames are slightly wider anyway

 

[rolande]

The only reason I use plastic ends is my mish mash of frames but I am trying to get them all back to Hoffman. I doubt I will ever get there, The annoying thing with the plastic on the Hoffman frames is they fill the gap with propolis so in the end the Hoffman frames are slightly wider anyway

Having made a few 'simple' frames out of four sticks when cash has been tight and having somehow ended up with a few DN1s as well I stumbled on a perfectly workable spacing solution by cutting short lengths of 5mm wood (the wedges that hold wired foundation in most UK frames are ideal) and tacking them onto the sidebars as per Hoffman shoulders.

EDIT: to avoid confusion I'll point out that I know 5mm is a little slim when used on shop bought frames but it's an easy repurpose of the wedges and a little propolis soon fixes the distance. Slightly wider strips are of course easy enough to cut on a bandsaw for the perfectionist.

 

[Murox]

Having made a few 'simple' frames out of four sticks when cash has been tight and having somehow ended up with a few DN1s as well I stumbled on a perfectly workable spacing solution by cutting short lengths of 5mm wood (the wedges that hold wired foundation in most UK frames are ideal) and tacking them onto the sidebars as per Hoffman shoulders.

EDIT: to avoid confusion I'll point out that I know 5mm is a little slim when used on shop bought frames but it's an easy repurpose of the wedges and a little propolis soon fixes the distance. Slightly wider strips are of course easy enough to cut on a bandsaw for the perfectionist.

I found that 6mm diameter splined wooden dowels work well enough when glued on from new when making frames from scratch without a bandsaw.

 

[JamezF]

I found that 6mm diameter splined wooden dowels work well enough when glued on from new when making frames from scratch without a bandsaw.

Not sure I follow. Do you mean gluing a piece of dowel lengthways to each side of the sidebar, or end-on?

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

new bee books to recommend? I'm running short on reading material

You'll have read Manley's three books, or at least Honey Farming. Donald Sims' 60 Years with Bees is a practical gem, written fluently.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

In the past I've used Hoffman convertor clips (35mm spacing) from Thornes but they no longer stock them. Maisemore do.
By chance had some push pins which give a 34mm spacing.

 

[Rory Fields]

The only reason I use plastic ends is my mish mash of frames but I am trying to get them all back to Hoffman. I doubt I will ever get there, The annoying thing with the plastic on the Hoffman frames is they fill the gap with propolis so in the end the Hoffman frames are slightly wider anyway

They swing a lot more if you're moving hives too, I'm like you, bought Hoffman converter clips for my dn1s

 

[Rory Fields]

You'll have read Manley's three books, or at least Honey Farming. Donald Sims' 60 Years with Bees is a practical gem, written fluently.

I've only got Honey Farming so far, it's a little flowery even for me which is saying something, but it's enjoyable nonetheless. Thanks, I'll give Sims a go!

 

[Malmcd]

I tried Hoffman converter clips once, but did not like them at all! They reduced the Bee space which resulted in the bees building brace between the clip and the side wall. Possibly smearing them with vaselene would prevent that, but they are a faff anyway!

 

[Rory Fields]

I tried Hoffman converter clips once, but did not like them at all! They reduced the Bee space which resulted in the bees building brace between the clip and the side wall. Possibly smearing them with vaselene would prevent that, but they are a faff anyway!

It depends where you get them from, in my experience anyway. I tried some ones that slid onto the lugs but they, as you rightly say, threw everything else out. Now I have U-shaped ones that I nail over the top od the side-bar - obviously preferable to get Hoffman in the first place, but my mam kindly bought me 100 DN1's by mistake so I make do