Breeding value of carnica

[B+.]

Breeding values were published today. They seem lower than expected but Prof Brascamp is already looking into it.

Anyone interested in the results can find them here http://www.beebreed.eu

 

[Beefriendly]

Anyone supplying these VSH Carnica queens on a commercial basis yet?

 

[B+.]

Anyone supplying these VSH Carnica queens on a commercial basis yet?

No.
Anyone with VSH development programmes will be keeping them to themselves and/or swapping with breeders who are also working on it. You won't see them for sale for a long time to come IMO.
Why do you keep asking about commercial availability? Unless you are a multiplier, you wont see them - only their open mated offspring. You'd be better off looking at the increase in the varroa index if you want to increase the varroa tolerance in your bees. Then, of course, you'd have to instrumentally inseminate 1a daughters or use them as 1b drone mothers/4a grandmothers.

Added: John Harbo described how VSH works and how to select for it here (http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...018pdf.pdf?token=I/VQvhkhUYzx8OKrt+Q9TMBi8Io= ). There is also a JAR article here (https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFil...9-Villa--Simplified methods of evaluating.pdf )

 

[Cuttingedge]

Thanks for posting this B+.
I find it fascinating to see how serious recordkeeping is in other parts of the world.

 

[Curly green fingers]

I wanted to ask is there not any population distribution in the UK of carnica bee's.
There's quite a few breeding them .

 

[B+.]

I wanted to ask is there not any population distribution in the UK of carnica bee's.
There's quite a few breeding them .

I am in touch with a growing network of people with carnica around the UK. We also have a small group in Beds/Bucks who are starting the performance test this year with a view to proper breeding in the future.

 

[Ian123]

http://blackhorseapiaries.org/....... johns been using carnica for years with a well established set up and having populated most flat roofs in the area gets good reliable matings

 

[B+.]

http://blackhorseapiaries.org/....... johns been using carnica for years with a well established set up and having populated most flat roofs in the area gets good reliable matings

I have no wish to be rude, either to you or Black Horse apiaries, but, you are describing "Queen rearing" and not "Bee Breeding". Without control of the mating process, you can't be 100% sure of the progeny. Open mating in the UK, where there is no control on the movement of bees, just doesn't provide that level of certainty.

 

[B+.]

Thanks for posting this B+.
I find it fascinating to see how serious recordkeeping is in other parts of the world.

Not just in other parts of the world. This time next year, the two beekeepers I am mentoring should have breeding values too.

One option I am considering at the moment is to inseminate daughters of NL-55-35-9-2017 with sperm from drones produced by a daughter of DE-6-131-97-2016. This increases the estimated breeding value(EBV) for each trait.

 

[Ian123]

I have no wish to be rude, either to you or Black Horse apiaries, but, you are describing "Queen rearing" and not "Bee Breeding". Without control of the mating process, you can't be 100% sure of the progeny. Open mating in the UK, where there is no control on the movement of bees, just doesn't provide that level of certainty.

No dont worry you are not being rude and i well understand the difference and you are correct...But for myself and i assume at least some others i am happy with a good f1 and have seen some decent daughters off those from some sites. I dont require the need to 100% but i understand you do. The point I was trying to make was that from a decent/established set up you can get reliable matings to an extent but as you rightly say not 100%

 

[Curly green fingers]

Not just in other parts of the world. This time next year, the two beekeepers I am mentoring should have breeding values too.

One option I am considering at the moment is to inseminate daughters of NL-55-35-9-2017 with sperm from drones produced by a daughter of DE-6-131-97-2016. This increases the estimated breeding value(EBV) for each trait.

Hi b+ I'm interested in reading your link but unable to open it any other way/ means etc..
Thanks.

 

[B+.]

Hi b+ I'm interested in reading your link but unable to open it any other way/ means etc..
Thanks.

How about this? I saved it as a Jpeg instead of a pdf.

It is just a simple grid that shows the estimated breeding values (EBV) of the 2A dam and the 4A sire. The column on the right shows the EBV for the progeny (It is the mean of the dam (2A) and sire (4A) queens values).
It also shows the inbreeding coefficient for the planned offspring.

The good thing about a little plan like this is that I can plan which queens to raise virgins or drones from now (in February) long before the summer comes.

 

[Curly green fingers]

How about this? I saved it as a Jpeg instead of a pdf.

It is just a simple grid that shows the estimated breeding values (EBV) of the 2A dam and the 4A sire. The column on the right shows the EBV for the progeny (It is the mean of the dam (2A) and sire (4A) queens values).
It also shows the inbreeding coefficient for the planned offspring.

The good thing about a little plan like this is that I can plan which queens to raise virgins or drones from now (in February) long before the summer comes.

Thanks that's brilliant , another question how long of a time frame are you using to get your percentages before you've decided which lines to breed from . The sire 2016 queen? and the dam queen 2017 ?

And can you explain how you get your percentages for the inbreeding coefficientsy .
Hopefully I'm not firing to many questions at you and the questions I'm asking are understood?.
Cheers
Mark

 

[B+.]

Thanks that's brilliant , another question how long of a time frame are you using to get your percentages before you've decided which lines to breed from . The sire 2016 queen? and the dam queen 2017 ?

And can you explain how you get your percentages for the inbreeding coefficientsy .
Hopefully I'm not firing to many questions at you and the questions I'm asking are understood?.
Cheers
Mark

The first thing to say is that BeeBreed contains information on every queen in the breeding population. So, the system can work out the relationships and performance relative to each other for every individual. The information I showed you was taken directly from BeeBreed. I didn't have to work anything out. I just had to decide which queens I wanted to mate. In fact, even that is made easy in BeeBreed. There are planning tools that I just decide whether I want to send 1a virgin queens to an island mating station or have them instrumentally inseminated, then I give it the queens number and it comes back with a list of all the breeding opportunities with EBV and inbreeding coefficients. All I have to do is decide how I want the information sorted (I usually select descending order of "Total Breeding Value" (TBV) so all the best ones come first, irrespective of where they are).
I already have this queen in my test apiary (she was among my test group for 2018) and she scored well in every trait except honey yield. So, it was pretty clear that I should raise daughters from her. I asked BeeBreed to show me the options for island mating ranked by TBV. I could get 122% by sending them to Norderney or Vlieland, but, I already have a daughter of the 4a queen which will be on Vlieland this summer in my test group, so, I could acheive the same thing by instrumentally inseminating daughters of NL-55-35-9-2017 with sperm taken from drones produced by NL-55-35-32-2018 or NL-55-35-33-2018 (which are daughters of DE-6-131-97-2016)).
In other words, they would place about a dozen daughters of DE-6-131-97-2016 (the 4a queen) on the island to produce drones that would mate with 1a virgins that people send there. I already had 2 daughters (which were mated on Vlieland last summer) in my test group. So, I can take sperm from their drones and II 1a virgins here. From an EBV point of view, it is the same thing.

When a newly mated queen is introduced to a nuc, she is allowed to build her own colony over winter so that I am evaluating HER colonies performance (not the workers that help her get established which could come from a different colony). That is her birth year.
The following Spring, the "Performance test" begins and all the data from that test are entered into the system by the end of the season.
The following February, the breeding values are published. So, the queen will have gone through 2 winters by the time I have EBV for her.
4a Colonies which are chosen to provide drone producing queens (1b) are usually a year (or two) older.

ADDED: Watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vcpRnYhHg&index=6&list=PLbr7jvL12x96CATXF3u59e_lvLETOD6Vq&t=0s ) to get a better understanding of what I am doing

 

[B+.]

Hopefully I'm not firing to many questions at you and the questions I'm asking are understood?.

Incidentally, you will notice that the 4A queen has a letter "K" as a suffix to her queen number. This means she has a "körschein". That is German for the analysis they do on breeding material. It equates to a licence and details of the analysis, which can only be done by an approved body (such as a Bee Research Institute), are contained in the BeeBreed database.
You will also notice "(Av)" at the end. This means that her test results put her in the highest breeding "class". The requirements of this class are:
Class Av (*):
2 Varroa criteria assessed
Varroa index over 100%
2 customary breeding values over 100%
2 customary breeding values not below 95%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.35 certainty of breeding values honey yield
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed

So, there is a system which tells breeders how good a particular queen is for breeding purposes.

 

[Curly green fingers]

Incidentally, you will notice that the 4A queen has a letter "K" as a suffix to her queen number. This means she has a "körschein". That is German for the analysis they do on breeding material. It equates to a licence and details of the analysis, which can only be done by an approved body (such as a Bee Research Institute), are contained in the BeeBreed database.
You will also notice "(Av)" at the end. This means that her test results put her in the highest breeding "class". The requirements of this class are:
Class Av (*):
2 Varroa criteria assessed
Varroa index over 100%
2 customary breeding values over 100%
2 customary breeding values not below 95%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.35 certainty of breeding values honey yield
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed

So, there is a system which tells breeders how good a particular queen is for breeding purposes.

Cheers b+ I'll read through this later it's all very interesting , you are putting alot of effort into this thanks for sharing it with me .
I've an association meeting tomorrow on II and treatment free beekeeping. the association are even thinking of setting up an apiary .
Cheers
Mark..