Breaking up a large box colony

[Appledown]

Hi, I wonder if anyone here can help. I have a strong colony in a wooden box, frameless and with long combs probably well attached to the sides (the box is about 14" square by abou 3 feet high). I'm planning to unscrew the back and break up the colony, hoping to be able to make up a number of nucs that will raise new queens from this colony's eggs. But I've never done anything like this before. Could anybody suggest a good routine?

Many thanks in advance,

Roger

 

[Tom Bick]

I think the best thing you can do is get someone with experience of cut outs to help you and the equipment to do the job. Also with the experience to deal with perhaps problems on the way.

Look at this recent thread it may help you realise perhaps what is involved although perhaps your situation is less problematic. http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10861

 

[Midland Beek]

Anyone wanting to 'break up this colony and then make a number of nucs so that new queens are raised from this colony's eggs' is clearly misguided. Sometimes there is a case for leaving some bee colonies alone.

 

[Kev]

Hi,
These things can be problematic to sort out and difficult to really give advice without knowing more about what you want to do. Is the box movable and is it nessasary to not damage the box?

I think that if it was me the first step would be to get the colony into a movable frame hive - forget about making nucs at the moment.

So maybe remove the bottom of the box ( or cut a hole in it) and stand it on top of a brood box using a piece of ply with a big hole in it to join the two.
Once HM is seen in the brood box, Put a QX between the two. 3 weeks later remove the Box fron the hive and move it a few feet to one side. The next day you will have much fewer bees and no brood to deal with while doing the cutout.

All depends on the exact situation.


Kev

 

[Appledown]

Hi,
These things can be problematic to sort out and difficult to really give advice without knowing more about what you want to do. Is the box movable and is it nessasary to not damage the box?

I think that if it was me the first step would be to get the colony into a movable frame hive - forget about making nucs at the moment.

Thanks for helping Kev. Yes, the main idea is to get this queen where I can work with her easily. She's performed extremely well since I picked her up as a swarm last June, filling about 2 1/2 cu ft with comb and honey with no feeding or treatment. I reckon those are genes worth having. But I need to move the hive anyway, and I figure breaking it up and dividing the brood and bees among 4 or 5 nucs should, if I'm well organised, result in 3 or 4 good colonies, with 1 headed by this queen and the rest by her daughters - job done.

I can unscrew the back of the box, and I was hoping to be able to gently lever open a crack and then slip in a hot knife to cut away any place the comb is fixed to the back board. Then I can remove the back and replace it as a when things get hairy while they calm down. I could take the trouble to try to vac a lot of the foragers from the entrance first.

I make all my own gear, and I have two decent vac boxes (with a few fames already in - can be used as nucs) and am making a few more 6-frame nucs that can have the vac attached. So in theory I can get most of the bees into 4 or 5 boxes that are already nucs. Then I can tie eggs, brood and stores into frames, mess about grafting or fixing comb horizontally (or if lucky just shifting some swarm cells around), then unite the bees with brood just by slipping off the covers and plonking the brood/stores on top.

That was the plan - think it all through, prepare well, take my time and aim for a really good outcome.

I haven't actually used the vac boxes yet, so that's another unknown for me.

My main worry was about chilling the brood. I can fix up an incubator. Is it fair to take a decision on the day - go with warm weather if poss, or whip it someplace warm quickly if not?

So maybe remove the bottom of the box ( or cut a hole in it) and stand it on top of a brood box using a piece of ply with a big hole in it to join the two.
Once HM is seen in the brood box, Put a QX between the two. 3 weeks later remove the Box fron the hive and move it a few feet to one side. The next day you will have much fewer bees and no brood to deal with while doing the cutout.

Its a big struggle to move. Its on uneven ground, and weighs about as much as the old sacks of cement - I hefted it out a few feet a couple of days ago. I could get help to lift it more, and I might be able to get the bottom off - though I think its recessed in on batons, and I wouldn't be able to lever it if they've stuck it down. I can't see getting it high enough to make a hole - though maybe I could lean it over?

What do you think?

Roger?

All depends on the exact situation.
Kev

 

[Appledown]

Anyone wanting to 'break up this colony and then make a number of nucs so that new queens are raised from this colony's eggs' is clearly misguided. Sometimes there is a case for leaving some bee colonies alone.

Why do you say this? The colony seems very good - its thrived without treatment since I collected it as a swarm last June, and I think that qualifies it as a good class candidate for propagating from.

Roger

 

[Tom Bick]

Roger the best queen cells come from the strongest colonies so to expect a nuc to produce a queen cell may result in a queen but perhaps not a very good one.

If you want to manage this hive perhaps set a bait hive and hope to catch a swarm from it if or when they swarm. Or do the cut out into one framed hive let the colony settle down and then decide how to proceed.

 

[susbees]

I agree totally Tom....sort them into one colony first...then think about raising a couple of good queens in the proper manner. Nucs are lousy at making queens.

 

[Kev]

the main idea is to get this queen where I can work with her easily. She's performed extremely well since I picked her up as a swarm last June, filling about 2 1/2 cu ft with comb and honey with no feeding or treatment. I reckon those are genes worth having.

I Agree, but think its worth getting the queen into a proper brood box before trying to raise some nuc's. I think that trying to break up the colony as part of the cutout risks damaging the queen and as you said chilling the brood.

Its a big struggle to move. Its on uneven ground, and weighs about as much as the old sacks of cement - I hefted it out a few feet a couple of days ago. I could get help to lift it more, and I might be able to get the bottom off - though I think its recessed in on batons, and I wouldn't be able to lever it if they've stuck it down. I can't see getting it high enough to make a hole - though maybe I could lean it over?

What do you think?

Roger?

Just an idea.
Depends on there being some space around the box.
Would it be possible to fit a couple of lengths of wood to each side of the box to act as handles and to allow the box to be suspended on some concrete blocks.
If the box was suspended high enough for a brood box to be slid under then the bottom could be removed or even just sawn off. The brood box could be raised up to meet the bottom of the box. Then just back to waiting for the queen to be seen in the brood box. If you have some drawn frames to use then may not take more than a few days.
Once she is safe the whole operation becomes much easier as there is no worry of her getting damaged or lost.


Kev

 

[Appledown]

If the box was suspended high enough for a brood box to be slid under then the bottom could be removed or even just sawn off. The brood box could be raised up to meet the bottom of the box. Then just back to waiting for the queen to be seen in the brood box. If you have some drawn frames to use then may not take more than a few days.
Once she is safe the whole operation becomes much easier as there is no worry of her getting damaged or lost.
Kev

Its a good plan Kev (even though it entails lifting the box each time I want to inspect the new brood box - I could wangle levers and wedges) but... I have neighbours complaining about bees in their garden and I have promised to move them asap. And at the moment they are near buildings with power and warmth... nowhere else I can put them has that.

I might be persuaded to go with a double brood box and fiddle later rather than split to nucs (though as I understand things nucs raise just as good queens as any other way - the performance is in the breeding, not the place) but I'll still have to tie the brood into frames.

So... chilled brood. Lets say Saturday is like today, not warm, a bit of wind (I'm in that part of Kent where it doesn't seem to rain anymore)... vacuum the bees off the comb as it comes out, then wrap in hessian sacking while I carry 20 paces indoors to my warmer shed (fairly dim, leaky windows which bees will tend fly to and escape)... lay template on, cut out brood as best as poss, tie into frame with ready cut string, and slip into a rack in my incubator at 25 deg. C. ... does that sound ok?

Roger

 

[Tom Bick]

Roger if you say your neighbours are complaining about the bees now you should as part of your plans on Saturday include make sure the neighbours are not home.

Are they complaining because the bees are a bit tetchy plenty of oil seed rape in your parts and I understand can make the bees a bit grumpy but perhaps nothing to what you are planning for them.

If it is the case that they are grumpy and you make them or part of them queen- any grumpy tendencies will go up a notch or two.

 

[Appledown]

Roger if you say your neighbours are complaining about the bees now you should as part of your plans on Saturday include make sure the neighbours are not home.

Are they complaining because the bees are a bit tetchy plenty of oil seed rape in your parts and I understand can make the bees a bit grumpy but perhaps nothing to what you are planning for them.

If it is the case that they are grumpy and you make them or part of them queen- any grumpy tendencies will go up a notch or two.

Thanks Tom.

The neighbours have been complaining because the bees have been visiting their pool and cat bowl for water, and nosing about indoors a bit. They are normally out on Saturdays, but yes I'll check and advise accordingly.

I don't know if they've been on rape - I've seen a few on buttercups - which seem to be having a good year. They've mostly been bringing in varied pollen. They don't seem grumpy -they've been living just around the corner of a building that I use constantly, and I've had no trouble as yet. One or two in the hair, but you get that when you stand in their flight-path and watch them while you have a cupper most days!

But I was hoping to do a well controlled operation, with the great majority of the ladies straight into nucs and kept there all the time, and the rest carrying on their business from a new hive on the old spot (thanks Kev). Then open the nucs (after a period to be decided - advised?) at their new locations. I want to be able to concentrate on handling the brood well, and not feeling rushed or hassled. That's the hope...

 

[Kev]

Its a good plan Kev (even though it entails lifting the box each time I want to inspect the new brood box - I could wangle levers and wedges).

Sorry, I didn't explain my self properly. Was thinking that the Box would remain suspended a bit like a sedan chair and the new brood box would be rasied up to the bottom of the box. To inspect just remove the wedges that are holding the brood box up against the box and slide it out to do the inspection.

I might be persuaded to go with a double brood box and fiddle later rather than split to nucs (though as I understand things nucs raise just as good queens as any other way - the performance is in the breeding, not the place) but I'll still have to tie the brood into frames.

Yes you are right, a nuc will raise its own queen, but the problem is that to raise a good queen the bees need to do it at their leasure rather than as an emergency cell that a nuc would raise. a colony needs lots on nurse bees to provide the royal jelly to create good queens. hence the advice from others not to let nuc's raise queens. The exception to this is if you find sealed queen cells. (sure others will tell you if i am wrong)

So... chilled brood. Lets say Saturday is like today, not warm, a bit of wind (I'm in that part of Kent where it doesn't seem to rain anymore)... vacuum the bees off the comb as it comes out, then wrap in hessian sacking while I carry 20 paces indoors to my warmer shed (fairly dim, leaky windows which bees will tend fly to and escape)... lay template on, cut out brood as best as poss, tie into frame with ready cut string, and slip into a rack in my incubator at 25 deg. C. ... does that sound ok?

It sounds like you need to get this done because of the neighbours so that may be your only option. I think an incubator temp of 25 deg C is cooler than brood normaly is. Queen cell incubators normally run at around 32 deg C.
Personally I would move the box 10 feet early on saturday morning and put a hive with some drawn comb in its place. Wait untill late morning before you start, you will be suprised how many bees go back to the original site.


Kev

 

[Appledown]

Yes you are right, a nuc will raise its own queen, but the problem is that to raise a good queen the bees need to do it at their leasure rather than as an emergency cell that a nuc would raise. a colony needs lots on nurse bees to provide the royal jelly to create good queens. hence the advice from others not to let nuc's raise queens. The exception to this is if you find sealed queen cells. (sure others will tell you if i am wrong)

I think the jury must be out on this one. I've read from what I think are good sources that grafting and 'semi-grafting' (my expression meaning just laying comb containg eggs/1 day larvae over the frames, or pinning same to the underside of a frame top bar) should be done with bees that have been prepared to think it is an emergency - ie no queen, and preferrably lots of bees in a small space. This covers 'help we need a queen because we haven't gone one one' and 'help we need a queen in order to swarm' - both pressing the bees toward making queen cells. On this reading the idea of emergency queens being poor is a bit of a myth. Queens made from more than 2 or 3 days old larvae are however recognised to be poor - and the colony will recognise this and supercede.

I agree nurse bees are needed, and I'll be attempting to get a balance of older and younger bees in each nuc - though the one on the old site will probably collect more than its fair share of older ones.

It sounds like you need to get this done because of the neighbours so that may be your only option. I think an incubator temp of 25 deg C is cooler than brood normaly is. Queen cell incubators normally run at around 32 deg C.

I can aim for that, by hook or by crook.

Personally I would move the box 10 feet early on saturday morning and put a hive with some drawn comb in its place. Wait untill late morning before you start, you will be suprised how many bees go back to the original site.

Kev

Will do. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers, thanks everybody

 

[Appledown]

Hello Everyone,

I finally managed to get the job done (Thornes had held me up waiting for new frames). Here's what I did:

I built five 6-frame nucs with mesh bottoms and standard round access holes with swivelling entrance covers. I also made 5 acrylic sliding tops, and a 'suction box' that the nucs could sit in. A vacuum hose was fitted to each nuc in turn, the nuc was sat on the suction box, and bees were sucked in. Once done the entrance was closed and the nuc could be lifted off. Later these brood-frame nucs were united with lifts with tied-in brood and stores by simply placing the latter on top and sliding out the acrylic. So it was largely a flying bee free operation.

I started by taking off the lid and removing the top-bars (it was a top-bar box) the day before. Next day I sucked in foragers from the entrance, and bees from the open top, getting about the same amount into each nuc. Then I shifted the box about 20 yards to a position in the shade just outside a shed I was going to work in. I cut the side off the box with a jig-saw (it had been glued and screwed on) and started removing the side-presented combs. This involved sucking bees off the front, knifing through the comb attaching to each side, and easing it onto a ply board with a baton across the bottom to stop it sliding down. The board was then laid down so bees could run back in while I sucked more off. (Sucking works best when they are running in a panic due to smoving - but this also causes them to lift off)

After sucking bees off the back, the carrying board and comb was taken inside and set over a pre-prepared slanted board over a tub to be cut by template for attaching to frames. Brood went into a home made 'incubator'; stores to a plastic sealable box. I came across 8 sealed queen cells, and they went into the incubator too.

Once the first comb was done I made up 2 frames of brood and added it to a lift, added a queen cell, united this lift with a brood nuc, and placed the set where the old box hive had been. The flying bees started going in straight away.

So: I worked through all 8 combs like this, my assistant swapping the 5 nucs as suitable. At the end of an hour or so all the bees were in nucs, all the brood and queen cells were in the incubator, and all the stores were in containers in cut slabs. We had a cup of tea with honey; then loaded the rest and united them all, took them to their new positions, and opened their entrances at about 1/2 hour intervals. I'm pretty sure quite a few came back to the nuc at the old site, but I think most stayed in their new homes.

So: there was sealed brood, and just a bit of unsealed large larvae, sealed queen cells and a couple open and clean. I reckon the latter were probably from a previous supercedure. There wasn't as much honey as I'd been expecting, and I suspect the queen flew with a swarm sometime in the last week or two. No eggs or young brood.

There may be a virgin present, but I suspect I'm relying on the queen cells to continue the bloodline. In any case I'll be making up a queen cell frame and inserting fresh comb to try to get queens from another hive just in case I've lost this line.

Roger

 

[Appledown]

PS photos at http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=266

 

[fredbloggs]

Yippee!

Well done

Shame about the swarm but at least you now have them on frames. Might need to consider introducing mated queens? Just another option?

Also i have missed how they managed to be in an unmanagable box in the first place ? Did you introduce them ?

Regards

FB

 

[Appledown]

Well done

Shame about the swarm but at least you now have them on frames. Might need to consider introducing mated queens? Just another option?

Also i have missed how they managed to be in an unmanagable box in the first place ? Did you introduce them ?

Regards

FB

I'd returned to beekeeping after a long absence last year (and having given away all my clobber), and while in the middle of a hectic house and workshop move and very skint I thought it'd be a good idea to put my name on the swarm collectors list. So I arrived back with a swarm in a plastic wastepaper bin - they weren't happy there - and nothing to put them in except a box I'd made with the intention of putting it up a tree as a swarm catcher. In they went, and they stayed there all last summer and winter. I'd half expected them to die as I didn't treat them in any way (deliberately - I'm going do or die), but no, they built up like billio in the spring.

I'm going to leave them alone for 2 weeks, hoping the queen cells will come off. I want those genes. One of the Qcells was uncapped, and I read that as they all have about 10 days to go - if they were all laid at the same time. But is that a reasonable assumption? Meantime I'm going to try to get some queen cells going from another hive, and (if successful) I'll pop those in as backup. If it all goes wrong... I'll cross that bridge when I get there!