Boxes and Frames

[jenkinsbrynmair]

why not 12? they certainly fit, yes it maybe tight and hard to get them out.
But I use 12 and I'm in no hurry to use a dummy board it creates places for nasties from what I've seen. Need a valid reason for not using 12? Hoffman in brood box.

need a valid reason to have twelve in the first place (which you haven't demonstrated yet)
1. You almost have to hammer the frames in place, and that's new, clean frames - wait until the bees have mucked around with them, increased their width and glued them all together
2. Tightly packed and propolised frames are a PITA to remove, you have to lever them upwards and risk breaking the lugs - I remember on a bee farm once, where Langstroths were used (notorious for being tightly packed even with the correct number of frames) some of the frames had not been constructed properly , in all fairnes he was building up his stocks by buying up other beekeeper/farmers and often, nails were in the wrong place. more than once I saw the top bar parting companywith the rest of the frame, which was still tightly wedged in the broodbox
3. having to force the tightly packed frame out can disturb the bees and wind them up, meaning irate and agressive bees early on in the inspection
4. Lifting frames straight out of a tightly packed box can 'roll' the bees (see point 3)
5. more of a chance of killing the queen
6. By only running a 11 frame box with dummy board, at the beginning of the inspection you can move the dummy board back into the void space before removing it, meaning less disturbance, each frame can then be gently levered/pushed out into the extra space fefore lifting out. FAr less disrturbance to the bees, far less chance of damaging the queen, har less chance of breaking frames.

 

[Swarm]

Isn't new kit wonderful? I have loads of new boxes all fitted with frames, ready to go.
I've found with old kit, I could run with eleven and no dummy board, just lever a little extra space either end. Useful if you are looking to raise drones and don't want the cappings ripped off when you inspect, just open up the spacing a tad.

 

[Amari]

In addition to all the great advice you've already had, I would add find your local beekeeping association and sign up to a beginners course and spend some time getting "hands on" at the branch apiary (when permitted). I can't overstate the value of the contacts and experience you will gain. A great source of support and advice.

Thanks everyone . It's a lot clearer in my head now. Appreciate all the advice.

Another bit of advice from an old hand: for best practice, beekeeping with just one hive is really not viable. You may have read that one way to control or forestall swarming** is to make a "split". For that you need two hives, or as a minimum a hive and a 'nuc'. I won't go into all the technicalities here.

Do get a mentor via your local association. Have you got a good textbook - plenty of recommendations on this forum

** swarming is not good. You lose half your bees and probably your honey crop.

 

[Cedar Field John]

Another bit of advice from an old hand: for best practice, beekeeping with just one hive is really not viable. You may have read that one way to control or forestall swarming** is to make a "split". For that you need two hives, or as a minimum a hive and a 'nuc'. I won't go into all the technicalities here.

Do get a mentor via your local association. Have you got a good textbook - plenty of recommendations on this forum

** swarming is not good. You lose half your bees and probably your honey crop.

Thanks for the advice Amari. My plan was always to split the hive when the signs are there to do so. I am planning to get a second hive soon; actually sooner than I thought, as it was mentioned on this thread, they can swarm first year.

 

[tom8400]

It sounds awfully nice if it was as simple as moving the dummy board back a little and they would all move so easily a bit like how easy it all sounds in the books. I can see the idea behind running 11 with the board and if it worked like you mentioned I'd do that for sure, maybe I should try for myself my findings were different

My reasoning for not liking dummy boards in short is wax moth, I come by this hate through having acquired two colonies so far since beekeeping from people giving up bees and in both instances a dummy board was in the brood box and in both there were wax moth behind the dummy boards, two different hives from two different places taken to two different apiaries once I had tidied them up and removed the boards it cured the problem.

My two hives at the same time and having just put the 12 frames in as supplied with the first and doing so again with the second hive (not knowing any different) didn't have wax moth issues.

This is where my question of the dummy board comes from and the gaps it creates.
Since your points are very valid for the use of them I will try putting a new plastic one I have in a hive with 11 frames this time and see what happens as I do believe in trying different things if it will make keeping bees easier or better for the colony.

I have found manufacturer and the colony its self makes a difference some boxes really are tight and prove your points others are ok, one of my colonies will stick anything solid though and I have damaged frames even in supers on that one. I call them the sticky bar stools.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It sounds awfully nice if it was as simple as moving the dummy board back a little and they would all move so easily a bit like how easy it all sounds in the books. I can see the idea behind running 11 with the board and if it worked like you mentioned I'd do that for sure, maybe I should try for myself my findings were different

My reasoning for not liking dummy boards in short is wax moth, I come by this hate through having acquired two colonies so far since beekeeping from people giving up bees and in both instances a dummy board was in the brood box and in both there were wax moth behind the dummy boards, two different hives from two different places taken to two different apiaries once I had tidied them up and removed the boards it cured the problem.

My two hives at the same time and having just put the 12 frames in as supplied with the first and doing so again with the second hive (not knowing any different) didn't have wax moth issues.

This is where my question of the dummy board comes from and the gaps it creates.
Since your points are very valid for the use of them I will try putting a new plastic one I have in a hive with 11 frames this time and see what happens as I do believe in trying different things if it will make keeping bees easier or better for the colony.

I have found manufacturer and the colony its self makes a difference some boxes really are tight and prove your points others are ok, one of my colonies will stick anything solid though and I have damaged frames even in supers on that one. I call them the sticky bar stools.

Never seen dummy board related waxmoth issues - never seen waxmoth tucked up behind the dummy boards either - sounds to me like the problem with those hives was the owners losing interest so the hive were negleted, giving the moths plenty of peace and quiet.

 

[gmonag]

Just for interest...

Rose boxes take 12 frames with space to move the first frame. No need for a dummy board.

 

[user 819]

why not 12? they certainly fit, yes it maybe tight and hard to get them out.
But I use 12 and I'm in no hurry to use a dummy board it creates places for nasties from what I've seen. Need a valid reason for not using 12? Hoffman in brood box.

Too tight 12 usually for National, best way to anger the bees roll the buggers as you draw out a tight sticking frame. They will soon tell you they ain't happy.
Never had issue with creating hiding for WM.

 

[Newbeeneil]

11 frames on castellations no dummy board........ I'll get my hat!

 

[user 819]

11 frames on castellations no dummy board........ I'll get my hat!

Yes Roger !.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

11 frames on castellations no dummy board........ I'll get my hat!

quite a few do it gives that little extra space for better drones - as you're popping out can you bring back a bag of chips - after all, it is Friday

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

quite a few do it gives that little extra space for better drones - as you're popping out can you bring back a bag of chips - after all, it is Friday

And don't forget your mask!

 

[Curly green finger's]

It sounds awfully nice if it was as simple as moving the dummy board back a little and they would all move so easily a bit like how easy it all sounds in the books. I can see the idea behind running 11 with the board and if it worked like you mentioned I'd do that for sure, maybe I should try for myself my findings were different

My reasoning for not liking dummy boards in short is wax moth, I come by this hate through having acquired two colonies so far since beekeeping from people giving up bees and in both instances a dummy board was in the brood box and in both there were wax moth behind the dummy boards, two different hives from two different places taken to two different apiaries once I had tidied them up and removed the boards it cured the problem.

My two hives at the same time and having just put the 12 frames in as supplied with the first and doing so again with the second hive (not knowing any different) didn't have wax moth issues.

This is where my question of the dummy board comes from and the gaps it creates.
Since your points are very valid for the use of them I will try putting a new plastic one I have in a hive with 11 frames this time and see what happens as I do believe in trying different things if it will make keeping bees easier or better for the colony.

I have found manufacturer and the colony its self makes a difference some boxes really are tight and prove your points others are ok, one of my colonies will stick anything solid though and I have damaged frames even in supers on that one. I call them the sticky bar stools.

If I was you I would use 11 frame castilations then 12 frames are a pain eventually.
Only time will tell even from the beginning 12 frames would never work for me.
Some bees will use more propolis than others even when there cleaned 12 never really go back in the same hive.

 

[MerryBee]

My reasoning for not liking dummy boards in short is wax moth, I come by this hate through having acquired two colonies ........

Very unwise to draw conclusions from a sample of only 2

 

[North End Bees]

I use 11 Hoffmans + dummy in my broods (Thornes boxes). Never had a problem with spacing and certainly never any 'nasties' behind the dummy.

In supers I use 10 of foundation reducing down to 9 after first extraction. I've found that 9 gives fat enough frames for easy uncapping without any of the weird and wonderful combs that you sometimes see where people have left wider spacing (often by accident as they've spaced by eye!)

I like straight (sn1) frames with castellations. Just my preference.

 

[Swarm]

Neil uses 11 slot castellations, no dummy board. His post, with the little add on was in expectation of being told it was the work of Satan.

 

[Amari]

If I was you I would use 11 frame castilations then 12 frames are a pain eventually.
Only time will tell even from the beginning 12 frames would never work for me.
Some bees will use more propolis than others even when there cleaned 12 never really go back in the same hive.

This talk of castellations in the (I assume) brood box is surprising me, remembering that this is the Beginners' Section

What I was taught and thought is universal advice: no castellations in the BB. At the start of an inspection you remove the end brood frame, so creating space. You then examine the next frame, then replace it and slide it backwards into the vacant space. This gives you room to lift out the next frame and repeat the process. The frames must be free to slide = no castellations.

The super is different; no need to inspect each frame = castellations are OK.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Different teachers Amari, like most things in beekeeping there are many ways to achieve the same thing.
Sorry my comments are short, I’m trying to make frames at the same time!
Edit, and fix castellations into a brood box!

 

[Amari]

Different teachers Amari, like most things in beekeeping there are many ways to achieve the same thing.
Sorry my comments are short, I’m trying to make frames at the same time!
Edit, and fix castellations into a brood box!

Sacrilege!

 

[Curly green finger's]

Sacrilege!

Maybe, I like castilations in the brood box, I have both brood boxes with and without.
I have shown both types to folk.