Blackout

[psafloyd]

Dusty, I didn't say your actions were gimmicky, but the notion of 'everyone' lighting a candle.

It is a great example of our society thinking of a way for everyone to show they care so when they forget the next day, they can feel good about the fact they 'did their bit'.

Again, that is not making any comment on YOUR actions, but the kind of collective mindset of our society (especially media where everyone HAS to be wearing all the different ribbons so they are utterly meaningless).

I honour those people not just every year, but every day I think about it, as I am sure you do. The poppy is the ONLY emblem I wear because it should never be forgotten what those people sacrificed, but especially those hundreds of thousands after 1916 who had no choice because conscripted.

I still think it should be called the Haig Fund to associate that bloodthirsty basket with the senseless death and commemorate the folly of these 19th century warriors playing Risk in a theatre they simply didn't understand. At least Kitchener got his at

I hadn't a clue what was going on until I saw a few pejorative comments on Facebook from people I would have thought should have known better who were clearly smug because they'd lit a tea light. So what? An hour's darkness (while watching telly no doubt, so darkness my arse)? In a few short hours, these people could be standing in northern France looking at the legacy of that war. It doesn't get any easier standing at places like Vimy even a hundred years on and I hope we never see the like again.

But this candle lighting episode still smacks of gimmickry so people can post pictures on social media to show how much they care. Again, that makes no comment about your actions or motivations, Dusty, but perhaps qualifies my position.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

'Scuse me - but I did it because I wanted to honour millions of men and women who gave their lives / were slaughtered in the industrialised carnage of war.

As a child I was acquainted with people who lost brothers/fathers/uncles/lovers (lot of ageing spinsters who taught me in Sunday school) in the first war, there was always an uncomfortable silence when the topic came up, my grandmother's brother volunteered and survived to be killed underground a few years later.None of them around now to pay homage - I did it for them.

 

[irishguy]

WW1 made the trouble in gaza look like a spat. 500,000 killed in a day.
No war has come close since thankfully.
Gaza is just land stealing and a criminal act not a war it's only a war when you fight an army.
The WW1 poetry makes you think how lucky we are now.

I thought it was WW2 that caused that with hitler . I'm probably wrong thou.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Withdrawn

 

[psafloyd]

As a child I was acquainted with people who lost brothers/fathers/uncles/lovers (lot of ageing spinsters who taught me in Sunday school) in the first war, there was always an uncomfortable silence when the topic came up, my grandmother's brother volunteered and survived to be killed underground a few years later.None of them around now to pay homage - I did it for them.

JBM, I wasn't criticising any individual, but questioned the attitude of some towards those who simply hadn't lit a candle. Such an organised group action leads to marginalisation as all those doing it together seek to validate their action. There's nothing wrong with lighting candles, but it's a bit like those who go to church at Christmas and never darken the door again in the year.

There's something Pavlovian about that kind of response when done en masse, because the telly tells people to do it.

I am assuming this is what has happened, as I heard nothing about it at all, despite only being out of the country for 17 days and back for the past three weeks.

So once again, I am not criticising those individuals who remember and who would have remembered anyway. How many of those who were lighting candles last night do you think will observe a silence on Armistice Day? I wonder.

 

[kazmcc]

I didn't light a candle, but I did switch out all lights in memory of my great grandad, who survived the war, but the person who was most on my mind was his brother, a young man who had his life ahead of him, but came home a broken man with shell shock and spent the rest of his years in a mental institution. I don't think of him every day, but he does come into my mind more often that once a year on poppy day.

 

[Dishmop]

I dont know if any of my relatives died in WW1.... Nobody to ask now. Didnt know either of my grandfathers althought I did know one great grandfather and at the age I was at the time WW1 wasnt anything I knew about.

WW2 was refered to as little as possible.."During the war children didnt have many sweets"

My father was born in 1914 so he was 25 when he joined up for WW2.. One of the older ones I suppose.... Only things he ever said was "best motorbike I ever had was a BMW when I was in the army" He explained that he "dragged a dead German off it"....They wouldnt let him bring it back. and when in Dover in about 1969, I asked him if he had ever seen the cliffs before..."Once..and bloody glad to." he was at Dunkirk. He had never mentioned it. Best of all was that they "liberated" a barrel of brandy and after they had drunk as much as they could they had a bath in it.
I cant remember him ever saying a word about his father.

I speak to a lot of WW2 veterans.. and a lot of people who were alive but not involved... They tell us what it was like and I try and persuade them to write it down so that people know what life was like and not just about who did what.

 

[kazmcc]

My grandad - who was in WW2 - and his father before him, refused to speak of it with the women in the family. Everything I know is from a recent foray into researching our family tree. My uncle was in the newspapers of the day quite often with his antics, he became an arsonist. It's a sad story of how the war affected those young men and women.

 

[psafloyd]

I didn't light a candle, but I did switch out all lights in memory of my great grandad, who survived the war, but the person who was most on my mind was his brother, a young man who had his life ahead of him, but came home a broken man with shell shock and spent the rest of his years in a mental institution. I don't think of him every day, but he does come into my mind more often that once a year on poppy day.

And service men still get a raw deal on return from war. It might be a professional army, but they would have better benefits if they worked for the council and that simply isn't right, as they are the most at risk public sector workers.

 

[psafloyd]

I dont know if any of my relatives died in WW1.... Nobody to ask now. Didnt know either of my grandfathers althought I did know one great grandfather and at the age I was at the time WW1 wasnt anything I knew about.

WW2 was refered to as little as possible.."During the war children didnt have many sweets"

My father was born in 1914 so he was 25 when he joined up for WW2.. One of the older ones I suppose.... Only things he ever said was "best motorbike I ever had was a BMW when I was in the army" He explained that he "dragged a dead German off it"....They wouldnt let him bring it back. and when in Dover in about 1969, I asked him if he had ever seen the cliffs before..."Once..and bloody glad to." he was at Dunkirk. He had never mentioned it. Best of all was that they "liberated" a barrel of brandy and after they had drunk as much as they could they had a bath in it.
I cant remember him ever saying a word about his father.

I speak to a lot of WW2 veterans.. and a lot of people who were alive but not involved... They tell us what it was like and I try and persuade them to write it down so that people know what life was like and not just about who did what.

My other half's grandfather would never speak of his WW2 experiences except for the light hearted stuff and that he was batman to a major.

We know the major was later a colonel, but I found out why a couple of years before he died.

We were staying with him in Cornwall and herself was doing something in the kitchen and he started talking to me as if I was her old man, because the grandfather had known him since he was a boy.

Anyway, he asked me if he'd ever told me about Gold and Sword beach and I felt the hairs rise on my neck, as I knew noone had heard any stories of that time in his life.

He then went on to tell me how he and his CO were the only survivors from his platoon on landing on Gold and how they were sent to Sword (I think it's that way round) where the major was given a platoon of Welshmen and the major was given a field promotion.

It was then he reminisced at how the only things to make it off the beach were the major, himself and the gun. I said what gun, as I knew nothing about this, but he was Gunner Wells and was in charge of the heavy machine gun.

I'm assuming an M2 Browning, which is incredible to think this man, a wiry 5'6" (if that) was responsible for a piece of kit which was as heavy as him with a tripod.

Again, this was something else the family didn't know until this time, thinking he'd had a rare old time in England polishing the major's shoes and pressing his suit until following the invasion east.

Just goes to show what can come out after time, but no wonder he didn't want to talk about it. It was quite apparent it was as real then as the time he had lived through it and that he had borne a heavy burden not only for the experience, but in terms of guilt for being one of the lucky ones.

 

[Dishmop]

he became an arsonist

As a hobby?

 

[kazmcc]

As a hobby?

Looks that way lol. We found a newspaper clipping about it. Turns out he escaped the hospital and settled down in a barn for the night. At some point he decided to set fire to it. He did the deed, then toddled off to a mill up the lane, set fire to the out house, then came back to the farm. He knocked on the door, and a farm hand answered - the farmer was away. He said ' Your barn is a'fire, do you have a phone?' The farm hand replied ' No!' he said ' Well, you are buggered then' and toddled off again. He was sent to prison for that on Hyde Rd, Manchester, from what we can gather.

There were many other incidents, along with numerous suicide attempts. It's just awful as he had no signs of mental illness before he went to war. It makes you wonder what he must have seen to make him lose his mind in such a way. It's these stories that are the saddest. The war may have ended but for so many, the damage lasted for the rest of their lives. Including all the families who had to live with these damaged souls.

 

[Teemore]

As a hobby?

Only when dealing with wasps! (sorry - linking to another thread there!)

None of my grandparents served during either war but I had a great, great uncle who was awarded a posthumous VC during WW1. He served with the Royal Enniskilling Fusileers. Another great, great uncle died in the trenches in WW1. He was a wee man who went off to war after a family falling out and never saw home nor family again. Its only a few years since we found out where his memorial is - I don't know whether his body was ever recovered.

My father was born during WW2 and as a small child, spent a lot of time with his grandfather in Virginia, Co. Cavan . He grew up around a generation of quiet men, many lacking limbs, none of whom ever talked about the war (WW1). As my father has often said, no one ever asked them about the war either. Perhaps they were afraid to hear what it was really like.

 

[Blue Spinnaker]

My other half's grandfather would never speak of his WW2 experiences except for the light hearted stuff and that he was batman to a major.

We know the major was later a colonel, but I found out why a couple of years before he died.

We were staying with him in Cornwall and herself was doing something in the kitchen and he started talking to me as if I was her old man, because the grandfather had known him since he was a boy.

Anyway, he asked me if he'd ever told me about Gold and Sword beach and I felt the hairs rise on my neck, as I knew noone had heard any stories of that time in his life.

He then went on to tell me how he and his CO were the only survivors from his platoon on landing on Gold and how they were sent to Sword (I think it's that way round) where the major was given a platoon of Welshmen and the major was given a field promotion.

It was then he reminisced at how the only things to make it off the beach were the major, himself and the gun. I said what gun, as I knew nothing about this, but he was Gunner Wells and was in charge of the heavy machine gun.

I'm assuming an M2 Browning, which is incredible to think this man, a wiry 5'6" (if that) was responsible for a piece of kit which was as heavy as him with a tripod.

Again, this was something else the family didn't know until this time, thinking he'd had a rare old time in England polishing the major's shoes and pressing his suit until following the invasion east.

Just goes to show what can come out after time, but no wonder he didn't want to talk about it. It was quite apparent it was as real then as the time he had lived through it and that he had borne a heavy burden not only for the experience, but in terms of guilt for being one of the lucky ones.

My other half's grandfather did a similar thing with me. Never spoke about the war till on a first visit to him as a teenager I went and asked him. Then out came the story of being a driver at the liberation of Belsen. The family were stunned.

 

[kazmcc]

Only when dealing with wasps! (sorry - linking to another thread there!)

Pity he's not still around, could have give him free reign in the garden lol, but then I suppose it's not as much fun when given permission lol

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Only when dealing with wasps! (sorry - linking to another thread there!)

Its only a few years since we found out where his memorial is - I don't know whether his body was ever recovered.

If he's on a memorial it is unlikely that his body was found (although I think possible if he was buried at home eg brought home wounded). I think the CWGC database will tell you definitively if you want to know.

 

[pargyle]

I think these commemorations have aroused some emotions - particularly in those of us who are old enough to have had relationships with WW1 and WWII veterans at a time when they were still close enough to the conflicts to remember them but far enough away from them to feel able to talk about them.

I was close to both my Grandfathers and they both went through the whole conflict, one was a Sapper who for much of the time dug tunnels and constructed trenches - didn't stop him (in his words) from 'going over the top' four times. He spared me the gory details but I know enough about it to know that I could never have done what these heroes did. My other Grandad was in the remount section and rode lead on a six in hand towing artillery and ammunition up to the front ... they were always targetted by the enemy gunfire and on one occasion a shell blew him off the horse, killed all six horses and he lived to tell the tale. After the war he tended pit ponies in the coal mines where we lived in South Yorkshire.

My father went through most of WWII but was reluctant until very late in his life to talk about it .. he was in mine disposal and (in his words) crawled most of the way up Italy with a bayonet between his teeth and a roll of white tape clearing a path through minefields .. he was very complimentary about the skill of the retreating Italians in leaving booby traps behind in anything from a loaf of fresh bread to a dead body ... scary stuff.

Whilst I deplore the conflicts we have seen in my lifetime I think the raw courage displayed by the millions of people (combatants and civilians) who lived and died in the two WORLD wars has to be admired and celebrated. These wars were like no others that went before and are nothing like anything that has been seen since, the scale of destruction and loss of life is unimaginable and the first world war was colossal. Around 5000 Allied personnel lost their lives on D Day (a recently revised and more accurate figure than the original 2500 published originally and maintained for many years) compare this with the figures for 1st July 1916 on the Somme when British casualties alone were over 60,000 with an estimated 20,000 dead or MIA .. and you can add that figure to the other nationalities involved ... in five months between July and November over 1 Million were killed on the Somme between ALL those involved in the conflict.

These figures are not just sobering they are incomprehensible and it is only when you stand in the cemeteries over there that the scale of the loss of life begins to sink in.

We are very fortunate to live in a generation that will never (I hope) experience carnage on this scale. If you didn't make your token gesture yesterday then you should do it now ... and be very thankful for those that sacrificed their youth, their sanity and in many cases their lives in order to make the world what, they hoped, would be a better place. Just as an aside, it's time this generation started taking better care of it ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We are very fortunate to live in a generation that will never (I hope) experience carnage on this scale. If you didn't make your token gesture yesterday then you should do it now ... and be very thankful for those that sacrificed their youth, their sanity and in many cases their lives in order to make the world what, they hoped, would be a better place. .

Hear Hear!

 

[Blue Spinnaker]

especially as time moves on and events become beyond loving memory.

 

[pargyle]

especially as time moves on and events become beyond loving memory.

We are there already ....

"I know nothing about the first world war" Post#15