Big brood box?

[Zante]

It's still early, very early for me to be considering which hive type to buy, but I like the planning stage as much as the actual doing stage, so I tend to plan everything well in advance, also because this way I can adjust and refine as I get closer to the "doing" stage.

I'm looking in the direction of large hives, such as Dadant or long hives such as the Dartington because I like the idea of a big nest, a big colony. From what I've read a bigger colony is more efficient than two smaller colonies of the same total size, but...

... well, that's it, I've read it, that's as far as I've been able to go at the moment, and I may have misunderstood it too.

So, is the above correct? Does it even make enough of a difference to get a hive type with a big brood box instead of the more common national?

Consider I'm not planning to go further than two hives at least for a while.
(Yeah, I know I'll end up having plenty more, I want to pretend I'll be able to stick to the small scale )

 

[Plenty of honey]

It's still early, very early for me to be considering which hive type to buy, but I like the planning stage as much as the actual doing stage, so I tend to plan everything well in advance, also because this way I can adjust and refine as I get closer to the "doing" stage.

I'm looking in the direction of large hives, such as Dadant or long hives such as the Dartington because I like the idea of a big nest, a big colony. From what I've read a bigger colony is more efficient than two smaller colonies of the same total size, but...

... well, that's it, I've read it, that's as far as I've been able to go at the moment, and I may have misunderstood it too.

So, is the above correct? Does it even make enough of a difference to get a hive type with a big brood box instead of the more common national?

Consider I'm not planning to go further than two hives at least for a while.
(Yeah, I know I'll end up having plenty more, I want to pretend I'll be able to stick to the small scale )

Hi Zante, In my books, all hives , National, Commercial, Langsdroth Etc Etc will all give you a large nest it just depends on how you set up your configuration.
I run Dadants but some times i wish i had smaller brood nests, so i could double them up or reverse them when needed.
Your right to look for a hive now. I would say go with what your beekeeper mentor uses. If you dont have one, join your closest group and start looking at hives.

You can keep good colonies in all hives, its the management of said colonies thats the issues. Ive seen nationals with double brood boxes with huge colonies, so dont think that it cant be done.

I would also try and go with whats going to fit if you've ordered a swarm. dont forget, when you order an overwintered colonie it will come on frames, so dont buy a Langsdroth and expect it to fit in a National. This might seem obvious but.....
best of luck in your first year.

 

[ugcheleuce]

From what I've read a bigger colony is more efficient than two smaller colonies of the same total size...

Yes, in a certain sense. Specifically from the point of view of gathering nectar when the flow is strong, one large colony is likely to make more honey than two small ones. This assumes the hive is able to build up to that maximum size in the first place, though.

Does it even make enough of a difference to get a hive type with a big brood box instead of the more common national?

You can always increase your brood nest by adding more boxes to the hive. Nothing prevents you from having a brood nest that spans a brood box plus a super, or two brood boxes, or three supers, etc.

The horizontal area of a British National is 0.14 m2, and that of a Dadant US/UK is 0.18 m2. So yes, the Dadant is 30% bigger than the British National, when we don't take box heights into account. But if your bees in the Dadant hive don't fill all 11 frames from top to bottom, then the difference is even less than 30%.

A single Dadant brood box will have a volume of 30cm x 0.18 = 0.054 m3. You can get the same (or more) volume with either two British National brood boxes: (23+23)cm x 0.14 = 0.064 m3, or even with three British National supers: (15+15+15)cm x 0.14 = 0.063 m3.

Since you're not going to have more than 5 hives, the "advantage" of having to check fewer frames when inspecting the brood nest doesn't really apply to you.

If e.g. you decide to use only British National supers (no brood boxes), then you'd have to inspect up to 33 frames per hive in swarming season, compared to only 11 frames in the Dadant, or compared to 22 frames if you use two British National brood boxes. However, it is really only during swarming season that you have to inspect every frame regularly (unless you take other steps to prevent or control swarming). At other times, you don't need to look at every single frame to be able to see what's going on in your hive.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Think you will find most of the questions I answered are already posted in the other post you did under hive types "Dadant Blatt" You've really asked the same question twice but under different topics!!

 

[Fusion_power]

Doing a good analysis of the positive and negative attributes of various hives will prove that any size hive can be used to keep bees and produce honey. The advantage of smaller hive sizes is that they weigh less. If back problems are an issue, the smaller hives can be a significant factor in being able to work bees. If you don't like having to handle 30 or more frames to find a queen and back problems are not an issue, the large sizes such as Dadant have distinctive advantages like an average cost about 24% less and much fewer frames to handle when inspecting.

 

[Zante]

Think you will find most of the questions I answered are already posted in the other post you did under hive types "Dadant Blatt" You've really asked the same question twice but under different topics!!

Not quite. My question in the other topic was about the compatibility of materials that in Italy are called "Dadant-Blatt" with those that here are called "Dadant", while here I'm asking whether a bigger box standard might be better to grow a larger colony and whether it makes much actual difference compared to a smaller box, enough to justify veering from the more common nationals.

 

[Zante]

I see what you all are saying, and I realise I can use (for example) two national brood boxes and have the large nest I was looking for, but this brings up two questions

1. One of the arguments here is that a bigger box might be a good option if one doesn't have a bad back, but wouldn't having to move more boxes also be bad for the back? I mean, a larger box standard might require fewer supers, as those would end up being bigger too, so to do an inspection you'd be moving either (for example) only two larger supers or three smaller supers and a smaller brood box.

2. Does the difference in honey flow make this dilemma worth considering? I mean, would the advantage of sharing a standard with the majority of beekeepers outweigh the increased honey production?

 

[Plenty of honey]

I see what you all are saying, and I realise I can use (for example) two national brood boxes and have the large nest I was looking for, but this brings up two questions

1. One of the arguments here is that a bigger box might be a good option if one doesn't have a bad back, but wouldn't having to move more boxes also be bad for the back? I mean, a larger box standard might require fewer supers, as those would end up being bigger too, so to do an inspection you'd be moving either (for example) only two larger supers or three smaller supers and a smaller brood box.

2. Does the difference in honey flow make this dilemma worth considering? I mean, would the advantage of sharing a standard with the majority of beekeepers outweigh the increased honey production?

It dosent really work like that. In the uk and most of europe, it rare that you will get a flow that gives you more than two supers full. Here, with A Dadant average weight of a full super (Honey and super) is about 18 kilos. Whether it a full Dadant, National or Langsdroth deep. medium or shallow these are all relatively heavy and its technique that will help you lift these supers on and off! Something you will learn how to do without wrecking your back.

If you have a bad back you can still keep hives. You dont have to move your actual hives all the time and you won't have supers on your hives for long, may be two to three months at the most. In the spring from between 3 to 5 weeks on average.

I see what your asking, but its really it dosent matter what hive you have, you super accordingly, and you manipulate the brood nest accordingly. Like i said in my first reply, you first have got to grow a large colony and you won't get a large honey crop until you've got a large colony with a lot of foragers, thats the skill!!!
You could well struggle all your beekeeping career or hobby career with huge hives that you've never learned how to fill properly.

Hive choice is really personal choice plus what the norm in your area plus what your mates have got (If you need to get bees from them)

You will find that very few beekeepers have started with one hive and havent tried others. In the end, most hives available to buy , work well in most areas, thats why their still made because they've been tested and used in many many scenarios and different areas for many areas.

Learn how to fill the hive in your area, get good colonies up to strength then worry about a honey crop! It will come to you no matter what hive you have, personal choice will follow with experience too!!

 

[Zante]

Fair enough, it makes sense.

I suppose the theory I've been reading will fall into place when I actually start the course and I'll look into real hives.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Fair enough, it makes sense.

I suppose the theory I've been reading will fall into place when I actually start the course and I'll look into real hives.

It will and you will get there!!
Books, forums , you tube, and courses are all great but you need to do all 4 with practical experience. Theres just so much to learn.
I think the expression "the more i know, the more i realise i dont know" is well used over recent years in beekeeping.

 

[Tremyfro]

I agree with all that has been said above. You mentioned the Dartington...or another name for long hive. I think they have advantages. Firstly, you won't have any heavy lifting....as mentioned above as you only move frames along the rail and lift out the ones you want to inspect. Lifting a 14x12 frame just requires good technique. If you are not removing honey from the brood box then you won't even have to lift the heavier honey laden frames. You use half size supers...so much less weight to lift and you don't have to lift them from a great height either.
The frames are 14x12 in a Beehaus, which means they are compatible with frames used by other beekeepers....although if you are making a Dartington...you could make it to take the size of frame you want to use.
The main part of you question is about brood nest size. In the long hive you can make this as big as you want...just by adding extra frames as the brood expands....or removing them as the brood nest shrinks. Using insulation means a small colony benefits during build up. You can fit this to the size of the colony...instead of having to add a whole brood box above an expanding colony at once.
One of the main objections to the long hive is the weight...if you wanted to move it. That is easily overcome by decanting the bees into a jumbo hive prior to moving the long hive.

 

[drex]

The size of the "nest" depends more on the bees and the forage and the weather, rather than the size of the box. A poor queen in a poor year, in a big box, will give a small "nest" in a big box, which they will just fill with honey, rather than putting it in the supers. A good queen, in a good year, in a small box is likely to swarm early unless you add another box. I suggest you go along with the commonest type of hive in your area, then borrowing stuff from other beeks is much easier. Myself I try to run double nationals.

 

[Plenty of honey]

The size of the "nest" depends more on the bees and the forage and the weather, rather than the size of the box. A poor queen in a poor year, in a big box, will give a small "nest" in a big box, which they will just fill with honey, rather than putting it in the supers. A good queen, in a good year, in a small box is likely to swarm early unless you add another box. I suggest you go along with the commonest type of hive in your area, then borrowing stuff from other beeks is much easier. Myself I try to run double nationals.

Good explanation Drex!

 

[For want of a better word]

The size of the "nest" depends more on the bees and the forage and the weather, rather than the size of the box. A poor queen in a poor year, in a big box, will give a small "nest" in a big box, which they will just fill with honey, rather than putting it in the supers. A good queen, in a good year, in a small box is likely to swarm early unless you add another box. I suggest you go along with the commonest type of hive in your area, then borrowing stuff from other beeks is much easier. Myself I try to run double nationals.

+ get your hives up at a reasonable working height to save the back.

IMOLE the long hives are ok if you just have a couple for fun.. I would not want 50!!

Yeghes da

 

[Zante]

IMOLE the long hives are ok if you just have a couple for fun.. I would not want 50!!

Yeghes da

Yeah, I'm considering them because I'm not planning to have more than a couple of hive and I'm not planning to move them.

 

[madasafish]

I run jumbo Langstroths (30cms deep) on hive stands. The brood boxes can get very heavy - and even in last year's poor summer 3 out of 4 hives filled the brood boxes entirely..

I have a bad back # but don't need to lift them to inspect. I can lift them when full if I am careful but prefer not to. I run Shallow supers so max weight 30KG when full..
I also run several TBHs - long hives - which are of course much easier on the back but far less productive.

Double brood is a (National) system I would not consider as most times it requires lifting a heavy brood box weekly during the busy season.Yes, I know you can inspect by just tilting the upper box but if there are QCs...Some US keepers use standard Lang brood boxes doubled...


# I used when a teenager to dead lift 250kgs but 50 years later the base of my spine is vulnerable to out of true strains.. lifting and twisting is a no-no-no. I reckon 60KGs is my limit now - I only weigh 72KGs anyway! Daily yoga exercises help.

 

[Swarm]

There's more to consider than the weight when removing and replacing them. What is a manageable weight can feel a whole lot heavier when trying to get it back on without crushing bees.

 

[Poly Hive]

Even with my relatively prolific bees a Langstroth is big enough. And yes double broods whilst effective are not that efficient a way to work.

PH

 

[bjosephd]

This is an interesting thread...

...Zante, if you don't mind I'd like to ask an additional opposite (sort of) question.

I'm committing to the Langstroth and there are many size boxes: Deep Brood, Brood, Super, Shallow Super.

Other than the obvious - lighter lift - benefit of a shallow super, are there any other benefits or disadvantages of using shallow supers?

Is it true that queens are reluctant to lay in shallow supers/short expanses of comb?

In the argument/discussion of not using a queen excluder it would seem this supports that approach.

It so makes sense for maybe a number of reasons to use 1 single BIG brood box (like madasafish's Jumbo Lang), with many Shallow Supers (again like madasafish!)

Not that I'm about to build a Perone hive but I'm wondering if a huge box with very shallow supers is the way to go.

I've made purchases with a mind to a one size box approach - but that's another story! (and a story that might change!)

BJD

 

[Poly Hive]

No body likes this but the wheel is real it has already been invented and there is not much that can be done to improve it.

Queens will certainly lay in supers. There is a system called brood and a half which is precisely what that is, a brood box and a super used together minus an excluder so the queen has the full range.

There is a great deal to be said for beginners to follow a standard path in beekeeping until they have ba solid understanding and appreciation for that the BEES WANT, not what the beekeepr thinks might be a good idea.

Crawl, toddle, walk then try for the medals.

PH

I may have just reached the toddle stage after 29 years.