Big brood box?

[bjosephd]

I totally understand what you're saying...

But with a brood box which is too small and a queen excluder on top that the queen is unable to pass through is never going to teach what the 'BEES WANT' but rather what the bees do under those peculiar circumstances.

The 'standard path' IS what beekeepers THINK might be a good idea, based on someone else's values and requirements. Often old school maximising of honey harvest...

as Into the lions den says "...amateur beekeepers. Their aims and rewards come in many forms, and to judge them by your standards...or mines....is futile and just damn wrong. Their main harvest is pleasure. In that I somewhat envy them..."

With regards to brood and a half, that is kind of the opposite to what I was trying to discuss, that a not very deep brood box with a not very shallow super on it, when the queen is prolific enough and wants more space to lay, it's understandable she's going to lay everywhichway she can. However, a very deep BB with a very shallow Super is a different matter.

There are prolific and successful beekeepers out there who you a myriad of different approaches or hybrid approaches... it seems the 'standard path' is becoming far less standard.

Poly hives are certainly not standard teehee

But then you are totally not a beginner of course and I'm aware you have come to that choice through experience.

And in all fairness the things I've suggested really aren't that maverick... madasafish seems to do the above almost exactly aside from, I'm guessing, the simple addition of a a queen excluder.

BJD

 

[Zante]

The way I see it is that if you have too much room in the brood box you can always remove a couple of frames and replace them with dummies. The box might be heavier than a smaller one, but if you have only one and don't move your hive the weight of the brood box becomes irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, you have a brood box that is too small for your queen you will have to add a brood box, whether you're using a super or a half brood or whatever size you may be using, and that means an extra box to lift and an extra box to inspect.

Obviously the extra time inspecting another set of frames is less relevant to a hobbyist with two or three hives, but it's still a factor. Also there's that extra box to lift that wouldn't be there in the first place if one started with a bigger brood box.

All of the above, though, is coming from someone (me ) who's done a lot of reading and is waiting for his course to start to get some practical experience in, so feel free to correct me if your experience says otherwise


I have looked at the bees available on the market, and I have set my heart on having Italian bees, and from what I understand they are quite prolific, growing into quite a large nest. From what I've read here and in the other thread I have dropped the idea of getting Dadant or Dadant-Blatt hives, but I'm still of the idea that a bigger brood box is a good idea, so now I am looking at either nationals with a deep brood box or a dartington.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I mean, a larger box standard might require fewer supers, as those would end up being bigger too...

That is an easy assumption, but no: you get small supers and big supers for big brood hives. The standard super for Dadant is 16 cm tall (I think) and for British National it is 15 cm tall. So while the Dadant brood box is huge compared to the British National brood box, the supers are closer to each other in size.

And if you don't travel with your bees (i.e. you keep the hives in one or two apiaries), and if you have fewer than 5 hives, then you don't have to "harvest" an entire super at a time. You can easily remove the frames one by one -- you'll have enough time if you're just a small hobby beek.

I mean, would the advantage of sharing a standard with the majority of beekeepers outweigh the increased honey production?

As has been said by others: the amount of honey you get depends on how many foragers there are in your colony, and that figure is largely independent of the type of hive you use

I say "largely" because some types of hives and some types of methods do allow for better honey production than others. For example, if your brood nest is very, very big, then you may have fewer foragers. Or if your bees are Italians instead of Buckfast, you'll have more brood and the foragers won't live as long as Buckfast bees do. All these things affect your honey production. But as a beginner, this should not be something to worry about.

There's more to consider than the weight when removing and replacing them. What is a manageable weight can feel a whole lot heavier when trying to get it back on without crushing bees.

+1. Try lifting a cardboard box with 20 kg of sugar in it. Not too heavy? Now try lifting the box and carrying it 50 meters. You'll see (feel) the difference.

I have set my heart on having Italian bees, and from what I understand they are quite prolific, growing into quite a large nest.

Yes, and they're yellower. They do grow larger brood nests, but there is a reason for that: Italian bees don't live as long as other bees. Also, Italian colonies finish their winter preparation much later, and they start earlier in spring, and their queens are more likely to start laying lots of eggs in mid-winter if there is an unexpected warm spell. So you'll have to feed them quite a bit more than e.g. Carnica or Buckfast bees. All races have pros and cons.

 

[Zante]

i have looked at the bees available on the market, and i have set my heart on having italian bees, and from what i understand they are quite prolific, growing into quite a large nest. From what i've read here and in the other thread i have dropped the idea of getting dadant or dadant-blatt hives, but i'm still of the idea that a bigger brood box is a good idea, so now i am looking at either nationals with a deep brood box or a dartington.

yes, and they're yellower. They do grow larger brood nests, but there is a reason for that: Italian bees don't live as long as other bees. Also, italian colonies finish their winter preparation much later, and they start earlier in spring, and their queens are more likely to start laying lots of eggs in mid-winter if there is an unexpected warm spell. So you'll have to feed them quite a bit more than e.g. Carnica or buckfast bees. All races have pros and cons.

They are indeed yellower and it was one of the factors of my choice, as well as the fact that they're called "Italian" (BTW, are they really from Italy as a breed?). It may seem frivolous as a reason to choose a breed, but remember that a hobbyist has less reason to make commercially sound choices and has more scope for frivolous ones. Even higher maintenance breeds will affect a hobbyist that has to look after three or four hives much less than a beekeeper that has 500 hives and relies on bee products for his income.

Another thing (which ties in with the bigger brood boxes): I have no problem with leaving much more honey stores over winter for the bees. Having a bigger brood box means that there will be plenty of honey in the brood frames (correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm going with what I've read) and that it will be difficult to extract because there aren't many extractors that will take deep nationals. Well... the bees can keep it. My crop will be smaller but still more than I can use, swap and give away as presents. That will mean that there will be less of a possibility of needing to feed them in winter even though they are a "hungry" breed in that sense.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Having a bigger brood box means that there will be plenty of honey in the brood frames (correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm going with what I've read)...

Could be. Two years ago, my first F2 Italian queen had filled up the British National brood frames from corner to corner by April, and about half of the super's frames were also packed with brood. I have one Italian colony and about 6 colonies of F6 Buckfasts with some Carniolan blood mixed in, and the Italian colony is truly *prolific*. It doesn't really yield more honey, though (keep in mind that I don't travel with my bees).

The Italian bees do originally come from Italy.

 

[Swarm]

Aye, and that Italian workforce flies on its belly and mother lays away obliviously, even in a dearth. Regardless of a large brood box, with a year like 2015 you could find yourself feeding to prevent starvation.

 

[Zante]

Aye, and that Italian workforce flies on its belly and mother lays away obliviously, even in a dearth. Regardless of a large brood box, with a year like 2015 you could find yourself feeding to prevent starvation.

Good to know, thanks for the extra details. What I said above remains valid though. The way you've worded it I understand that 2015 was a particularly bad year, and I don't expect that the bees will not need feeding ever, just that with a bigger box for the nest the stores are likely to be bigger making feeding less likely, that is all.

As with all, do correct me if I'm wrong, please. That's also what I'm here for.

 

[bjosephd]

Anyone got any thoughts on my extra shallow super question yet?

MadAsAFish, you use extra shallow supers no? Is the benefit purely for lifting purposes? Or do you find other benefits? (Or problems even, as a price for light supers).

BJD

 

[Swarm]

I can't think of a reason, other than weight, for any shallow box.