BIBBA question?

[Poly Hive]

How does BIBBA now consider the use of wing morphometry?

Nothing about it I can find on the BIBBA web page so does anyone know?

PH

 

[For want of a better word]

A negative discoidal shift was once considered to be the hall mark of Amm.... but now whole genome sequencing is available at a moderate cost, the old methodology of morphological measurement must be reconsidered.

I saw a paper that showed by using whole genome sequencing the Germans found that a lot of their Carniolians were hybrids and not quite so pure as they imagined... by using various wing measurements... Hantel/Cubital index/discoilsl vein shift..... not that I am saying we do not have pure Amm in the UK... before the nay sayers get there arses in a twist!

I will put the question to the BIBBA technical committee.

Still in all probability a useful tool, in a very small sample of Amm in Cornwall it was found that in the bees that showed high Amm and low introgression/ hybridisation there was a correlation between negative discoidal shift and Amm ness!


Yeghes da

 

[Poly Hive]

As an aside to the central Q what is a reasonable cost re DNA?

PH

 

[fatshark]

Reasonable as far as the beekeeper is concerned or for the lab doing the testing? It should be reasonably easy to get a comprehensive SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) analysis to be sure of the 'race' or purity of the strain ... assuming you have acceptable reference standards to work from. The SNP analysis is usually done on custom-made commercial chips and - in volume - these can probably be produced for £25-£50. Volume is critical. You wouldn't get 20 made at that price.

Remember also that you'd need to design, develop and test the SNP array in the first place. This is likely to be quite time-consuming and therefore £££.

There are commercial setups (e.g. Edinburgh Genomics) that do this sort of thing - for example for salmon or livestock farmers.

 

[Stiffy]

As an aside to the central Q what is a reasonable cost re DNA?

PH

I regularly send wildlife samples for analysis, cost is around £30, dependant on species. When first offered the costs were in hundreds but now dropping. Must say Warwick Uni and/or Dublin are very helpful if you want advise
S

 

[For want of a better word]

Ful lgenome sequence is around £160 or the equivalent in Swiss francs... Apigenix.

Rapidly developing science

On wing morphometry Tolfinski has published papers showing correlation between DNA studies and wing morphometry for Amm and Carniolian.. from my reading it seems that any attempt to unravel the hybridised bees so loved by some, by any means, is a total waste of effort! If any population of any pure type has vanished it is Italian!!!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

As an aside to the central Q what is a reasonable cost re DNA?

PH

I was asked (as part of BeeBreed NL) to send 10*10 cm samples of drone eggs for DNA testing (https://www.researchgate.net/projec...and-genetic-diversity-in-the-honey-bee-GeSeBe). It is free this year, but, I expect there'll be a charge at some point.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Much used I am told, by BIBBA / NIHBS groups here in Ireland.

 

[beebopper]

A few questions about this;

How many base pairs is the honeybee genome?
How many chromosome?
What would be a good to read up this basic biology?

 

[For want of a better word]

A few questions about this;

How many base pairs is the honeybee genome?
How many chromosome?
What would be a good to read up this basic biology?

A

The complete genome of Apis mellifera has been sequenced and consists of 10,000 genes with approximately 236 million base pairs.( Wikipedia)

[about 0ne tenth of the human genome]

32 (16 pairs)

https://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Beginners-Guide-Guides/dp/185168304

Problem is that honeybee genetics is a very fast moving subject, and even genetics books as with beekeeping books get out of date very quickly.
I have a friend who only needs 2 hours sleep and spends his non working hours reading scientific papers published on honeybee research, specifically Amm He sends me about three papers a week to read......


Yeghes da

 

[DanBee]

The flaw of morphometry is not in the technique but in its usage.

Used to classify bees that are bred using other selection metrics, e.g. docility, disease resistance, etc., then it's OK.

Used as a selection metric for breeding, it becomes useless as a classification tool. You end up with the wing pattern you select for... just in the same way that if you selected for proboscis length you'd end up with bees with short or long tongues, regardless of other characteristics.

IMHO it's been badly used for a few decades but hopefully people are waking up to this. It was an easy measurement, required little in the way of sophisticated equipment (so was readily accessible), and it appealed to the fiddling / data gathering mindset that afflicts some beekeepers - but there's a difference between data and information

 

[For want of a better word]

The flaw of morphometry is not in the technique but in its usage.

Used to classify bees that are bred using other selection metrics, e.g. docility, disease resistance, etc., then it's OK.

Used as a selection metric for breeding, it becomes useless as a classification tool. You end up with the wing pattern you select for... just in the same way that if you selected for proboscis length you'd end up with bees with short or long tongues, regardless of other characteristics.

IMHO it's been badly used for a few decades but hopefully people are waking up to this. It was an easy measurement, required little in the way of sophisticated equipment (so was readily accessible), and it appealed to the fiddling / data gathering mindset that afflicts some beekeepers - but there's a difference between data and information

Very true
A good reply from a painter!

Yeghes da

 

[beebopper]

A

The complete genome of Apis mellifera has been sequenced and consists of 10,000 genes with approximately 236 million base pairs.( Wikipedia)

[about 0ne tenth of the human genome]

32 (16 pairs)

https://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Beginners-Guide-Guides/dp/185168304

Problem is that honeybee genetics is a very fast moving subject, and even genetics books as with beekeeping books get out of date very quickly.
I have a friend who only needs 2 hours sleep and spends his non working hours reading scientific papers published on honeybee research, specifically Amm He sends me about three papers a week to read......


Yeghes da

Thanks

 

[Finman]

.
Where you need exact genetic knowledge.
If you have a genemap, does your bees need to be the same?

Nature try towards hybrids and human try towards pure . Why?

With genemap price you get a new quality queen.

 

[Poly Hive]

Update.

I got a mail from a BIBBA person with a link but as I ahve not yet had a chance to read it myself I will do that then post. New orangery is being painted and that takes precedence.

PH