Bees keep swarming

[Hayteem]

Hello, I have not been on the forum before so will be a bit slow using it. I have two hives one very quiet (I think the bees from here have joined the other hive) and the other full of bees in the brood box with two supers not really being used yet. However the bees in the full hive keep wanting to swarm, to the alarm of my neighbours and me. I have retrieved them the past two days and they have tried to swarm twice today. After yesterday I put a queen excluder below the brood box as well as one above. The queen is unmarked and I can't see her but the bees know she is still inside the brood box as they have swarmed and now clustered around the hive. My question is do I remove the bottom excluder and let them swarm with the queen? Will the queen and bees come back to the hive or will they go elsewhere and be lost? Any advice would be appreciated. Note There was a marked queen in the other hive but I also can't find her and only three frames are being used. I am new, 2 months to bee keeping and struggling a bit. Peter , Rochdale

 

[isc26]

Have you got spare kit to keep a swarm in?

If you remove th QX at bottom the chances are they will swarm. You might be fortunate and catch & rehome them but also you could lose them. Depends how much time you have got to watch them and how close they settle.

If you keep putting them back in the same box they will continue to try to swarm.

 

[Hayteem]

Thanks for the reply. I only have the other hive. They are all clinging to their hive at present. I have blocked the entrance hole so more can't come out and the bees have settled down. Peter

 

[REDWOOD]

Once bees have made up their mind to swarm there is no stopping then unless you do an AS but if you don't have a spare hive or nuc it can't be done, however you said you had 2 supers not being used so I would get a board put the 2 supers on top of each other and another board on top, prop the front to make an entrance and you have an emergency hive for a swarm or AS until you can get a spare hive
good luck

 

[Snail368]

I'm sure that more experienced members will be along soon. However if you block the entrance (with the queen inside) what will you achieve? I would unblock the entrance and allow the bees to go in and out freely, than this evening perhaps go into the hive and remove the queen cells (bees won't normally swarm without leaving queen cells. I would also remove the top queen excluder to the supers, so allowing all bees into the supers, this should reduce overcrowding and hopefully the bees wish to swarm. When the supers are in use, you can re install the QE (bees don't like going through a QE onto foundation, they will onto drawn comb or you leave off the QE for a week or 2).

 

[Hayteem]

Thanks Redwood, I have two unused supers in the garage which I can try what you have suggested. The queen must be on the inside of the queen excluder as most of the bees are clinging to the underneath of the varoa mesh. Peter

 

[Hayteem]

Thanks Snail. I blocked the entrance in fright as but I'm sure now that if I open it the bees will slowly go back in or with a slight nudge. I looked in the hive this morning for the queen but could not see her but did not take all the frames out and look in the bottom. There are three sealed queen cells, are you saying that I should open them and kill the grubs. Peter

 

[E1M]

Sorry to hear about your swarm, we had similar over the weekend. Lots of advice but in the end all you can do is hopefully be lucky enough to locate them, generally less than 50 metres away, coax them into a box or pillowcase etc, take them back to hive or nuc box, shake 'em in, hopefully with Queen and prey.
Didn't work for us though.
The first swarm is worrying and hopefully will be your last.
Good luck.

 

[tonybloke]

Hayteem, please read this document
http://www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

 

[Outlander]

Dalek's, Dr Who, Queen cells are they mad Tony.

Good ducument though and I think everyone should have to read it befor being allowed on the forum,

 

[Hayteem]

Thank you to all of you who replied. The bees are slowly going back into the hive. I had read the article before and copied it but did not wholly take it in. I will go and have a look for swarm cells and eliminate them as it suggests. For a newcomer, beekeeping is quite complicated and it does as with everything else become more understandable with experience. I have removed the queen excluder from above the brood box as suggested previously and left the two supers on. I still have another QE below the brood box to stop the queen getting out at the moment. On the other hive I have three frames (other frames untouched) with some bees on on so can I use that hive to salvage anything? Both hives have two supers fitted and I have two spare supers in the garage. Peter

 

[Teemore]

Peter,
If there are only three frames in use in the other hive, the two supers you have on it will not be needed by the bees for a while. The supers will be giving them a lot of extra space to heat and will likely make it difficult for them to draw wax. Consider removing those supers and storing them for the time being. If you got both colonies at the same time, you really need to be thinking about why one colony has built up and attempted to swarm whilst the other has stalled at three frames.

 

[Bryanthebee]

I am wondering is it possible to swap hives over, flyers go back to weak hive and the nurse bees stay put destroy QC. fingers crossed this would give them space and frames to still draw a different queen to work with and in time both hives will bee set back enought time to take the swaming away,and enough time to build up for winter. a bit radical but i beleave the bees with cope just fine.

 

[biglongdarren]

what end did all this take,are the bees still there?
Darren

 

[Hayteem]

Thanks Brian and Teemore in fact everyone. The bees have swarmed again this morning but the queen is still captive behind a QE BELOW the brood box. At present the main hive has QE BELOW the brood box, to stop the queen escaping which is fairly full with a super above for more space. Then another QE and another super. I blocked off the hive entrance earlier to reduce the loss and the circling bees went somewhere but are now drifting back and covering the hive or gathering under the varoa tray. I will open the entrance in a while when they have calmed down and the bees will go back in. However they will swarm again later. If I can keep them for another day just to get an idea what to do from all your tips. Otherwise I will just have to remove the lower QE and let them all go. Maybe they will return but I just don't know. I'm thinking of trying your suggestion Brian and swapping the hives over. If a new queen is produced the books say she will fly off , mate and come back to the hive but is that true. I'm just a bit down hearted at the moment at the thought of losing them all but grateful for your coments. I have read all my four books over and over again but the information gets a bit blurred by 4 am. Peter

 

[Les]

Hi Peter

I have read all my four books over and over again but the information gets a bit blurred by 4 am.

Have the bees read the books
I am in Rochdale and may be able to help. I have a spare nuc box you could borrow to AS them into.
Have you any spare undrawn frames?
Les

 

[E1M]

Hayteem,
We had a hive swarm over the weekend, tried to recover them from the ditch with no luck.
PeteD helped us out and from what we have been told, if the Queen wants to go, go she will.
We have some Queen cells (2, 1 capped 1 oped just being capped) and hopefully in 3 weeks we shall have a new mated Queen.
Whatever you read you will find something different in each book, whatever you are told, you will be told something different by each Beekeeper.
Good luck, join the real world of Beekeeping, we just have.

 

[Hayteem]

Thanks Les and E1M. I was fortunate to get a visit from Paul and his wife from Oldham Bee keeping Club. I learnt more from their visit than ever before. What E1M wrote about books and beekeepers is right on the line. In the hive we could not find the original queen as all the frames were heaving with bees but did see another queen emerge from a queen cell and disappear so fast amongst the other bees. We have now taken off all queen excluders. We will leave the two queens to fight it out then one will fly out and mate with a swarm or not but hopefully coming back. I have watched and prevented a complete swarm for five days now and my cardboard box is getting a bit ragged ! so I will leave them now to get on with it. Will just have to warn the neighbours tomorrow. Les, you are the first bee keeper I have had contact with in Rochdale. I do also appreciate your reply. I'm sorry I was not able to reply earlier. I live near the Spring Hill Hospice if you know it. Peter

 

[Hayteem]

Just an update to say that after 5 days trying about 2/3rds of the bees from one hive did swarm yesterday at 08.30 causing some local alarm as very noisy. They seemed to settle in a tree 50 feet away quite high up although I could not see them directly or get to them. After that all was quiet for the rest of the day until 6pm when a neighbour said could I come quickly and have a look at their house. I was shocked to find the swarm (if they were mine!) had found their new home inside the brick wall cavity through holes around two outside pipes. I did not know how to get the bees out. The bees had by then found their way through the wall cavities and even floors to inside the house through various cracks and openings. They were in the flush fitting ceiling lights and even crawling out of tiny cracks next to 13A wall sockets. The noise behind the fitted kitchen cupboards was awful with bees appearing everywhere. I did speak to another bee keeper who thought I would not be able to get them out and to be careful as they would pour out of the wall if threatened but they did not. For every fifty bees still going in perhaps two came out. My neighbours family home was now in turmoil with the wife and daughter in law shut in the only seemingly bee free room. With more bees trying to get in the outside wall I got a ladder, climbed up and blocked the holes with paper. I thought that might have made the bees panic and want to leave but whenever I removed the paper more tried to get in. Having to do something quickly I had to give the two holes a very long blast of wasp killer spray. I then, in between recovering bees all evening from inside the house proceeded to cement the outside holes up trapping the bees. I did notice that bees now in the house had been affected by my earlier spraying. My neighbour was stung on the hand as well. I eventually left the house just after midnight, six hours in a bee suit. Bees were still arriving, trying to get into the now blocked up hole when I left so bees do fly at night. There are some still trying now at 11.05 am this next morning but I have not been to see my neighbour yet as they had to go out early. My two bee hives are very quiet this morning. Maybe some bees escaped to go back to their hive and pass on the news! One question, possibly obvious to many of you experienced bee keepers, is there anything else I could have done to get the bees out of their new home when they had gone so far into the cavities and floors of the house? I felt sick, very apologetic and deflated, in fact I still do. My final hope for my very good neighbours is that the bees don't smell when they die as they did ask. Peter

 

[Winker]

you really need to get extra kit. For every hive of bees you have you need either an extra Nuc box at the minimum or another brood box, floor and roof. To help you control swarming, which is going to happen every year at least once.

Its going to be hard to get them out of the cavity now that the queen is in there. Your best bet is to try and kill what's in there with that wasp spray you have. But keep in mind that using the wasp spray will piss them off. So if they can get back into the house, its going to stretch your friendship with your neighbour.