Bees defending their honey

[DRam]

This is only our second year of beekeeping into the summer. Last year we don't take much honey off of the hives at all, but this year its much better and we now one hive with getting on for three full supers.

We decided to check on this hive this morning before 8am as it was nice a cool. However, as soon as we lifted the crown board the bees where at us in clouds. We have experienced what we thought were aggressive colonies before, but have never experienced anything quite so full on as this before. It was so bad we just shut the hive up and retreated, with loads of bees following us for some considerable distance.

Is this down to the heat? Or do colonies act like this when they are large and have a lot of honey to defend.

I'm not sure we want to go through that again, they were pretty nasty. Has anybody else got any similar experiences or advice, other than 'man-up'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Some bees do get a bit defensive if they think their store are in danger, but I think it was more a matter of having the hive ripped open when most were still at home.
Especially with the temperature extremes we have at the moment - just leave them in peace.

 

[enrico]

A) You have no idea what happened seconds before you arrived! Something may have upset them.
B) did you remove the crown board....just like that...? If they were all at home and you suddenly let light in they would take action. Try lifting it slowly and carefully to let light in slowly. Or use a see through crown board.
C) all bees have bad hair days....maybe this was theirs!
Next time try and be ultra careful...I find that once they have found this action frightens you off they may use it again.
Try and do inspections at about 11am. The bees are busy and you are just an annoying interruption.

 

[Mint Bee]

looks like the flow is tailing off locally and I suspect this heat will finish it off for a bit. However my bees were fine at the weekend soon after 9. Will be cooler later in the week, so can inspect early afternoon when more foragers are out. If they are grumpy next time then let us know and a few different approaches can be suggested.

 

[Swarm]

Most of them still at home. Have you opened them before 8 am before?

 

[DRam]

Most of them still at home. Have you opened them before 8 am before?

No we haven't opened this early before, we thought we were doing them a favour going in the cooler part of the day. As others point out many of the bees may still have been home, I'd just assumed that they'd set off once the sun was in the sky.

We'll try again later this week when it is cooler and try around midday for hopefully less bees. We are usually very gentle and slow when inspecting, so will try and remain clam, but today's experience was really horrible.

 

[enrico]

No we haven't opened this early before, we thought we were doing them a favour going in the cooler part of the day. As others point out many of the bees may still have been home, I'd just assumed that they'd set off once the sun was in the sky.

We'll try again later this week when it is cooler and try around midday for hopefully less bees. We are usually very gentle and slow when inspecting, so will try and remain clam, but today's experience was really horrible.

A lesson well learned! Thanks for sharing your experience so other can learn too. Late evening is also a no no. Don't be put off by their attitude. Everything was against you but next time hopefully will be better

 

[pargyle]

No we haven't opened this early before, we thought we were doing them a favour going in the cooler part of the day. As others point out many of the bees may still have been home, I'd just assumed that they'd set off once the sun was in the sky.

We'll try again later this week when it is cooler and try around midday for hopefully less bees. We are usually very gentle and slow when inspecting, so will try and remain clam, but today's experience was really horrible.

I find when there are stores of honey in the hive that some colonies can be a bit defensive and if you are inspecting when they are all at home it's not surprising that you get a cloud of bees .. but, were they actually agressive - pinging and stinging or were there just a lot of bees flying around you ... it can be pretty intimidating when a full colony comes up to see what's going on but it does not necessarily mean they are behaving agressively.

1. Inspect when they are likely to be flying - 11am is a good time as has been said, fewer bees in the hive

2.Have your smoker going and a water mister, go gently, lift a corner of the crownboard and give them just a whiff of smoke - not a lot - and give them time to head down into the frames.

3. Continue to lift the crownboard slowly and either push them back with a few more whiffs of smoke or a misting of water.

4.Only when you have them under control carry on ... but, what are you inspecting for ? Be sure of what you need to know and keep your inspection quick but gentle .. don't lift frames out that you don't need to look at, don't spend time looking at things that don't tell you anything. The less you disturb them the more obliging they will be and they will get to know you.

5. If they do keep coming at you and they are pinging and stinging close them up - there's no point in continuing - it will only upset your karma and the bees ain't going to like it either.

6.Stay calm and relaxed, talk to them, tell them what you are doing - they sense when you are stressed - you give off pheremones as well as the bees - and they will react if they sense the stress levels in the beekeeper are high.

As has been said, if you find you really do have an agressive colony - report back - there's a lot that can be done to resolve the problem with a hive you can't inspect.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No we haven't opened this early before, we thought we were doing them a favour going in the cooler part of the day. As others point out many of the bees may still have been home, I'd just assumed that they'd set off once the sun was in the sky.

We'll try again later this week when it is cooler and try around midday for hopefully less bees. We are usually very gentle and slow when inspecting, so will try and remain clam, but today's experience was really horrible.

Think about it - do you 'need' to inspect in the first place?

 

[DRam]

I find when there are stores of honey in the hive that some colonies can be a bit defensive and if you are inspecting when they are all at home it's not surprising that you get a cloud of bees .. but, were they actually agressive - pinging and stinging or were there just a lot of bees flying around you ... it can be pretty intimidating when a full colony comes up to see what's going on but it does not necessarily mean they are behaving agressively.

1. Inspect when they are likely to be flying - 11am is a good time as has been said, fewer bees in the hive

2.Have your smoker going and a water mister, go gently, lift a corner of the crownboard and give them just a whiff of smoke - not a lot - and give them time to head down into the frames.

3. Continue to lift the crownboard slowly and either push them back with a few more whiffs of smoke or a misting of water.

4.Only when you have them under control carry on ... but, what are you inspecting for ? Be sure of what you need to know and keep your inspection quick but gentle .. don't lift frames out that you don't need to look at, don't spend time looking at things that don't tell you anything. The less you disturb them the more obliging they will be and they will get to know you.

5. If they do keep coming at you and they are pinging and stinging close them up - there's no point in continuing - it will only upset your karma and the bees ain't going to like it either.

6.Stay calm and relaxed, talk to them, tell them what you are doing - they sense when you are stressed - you give off pheremones as well as the bees - and they will react if they sense the stress levels in the beekeeper are high.

As has been said, if you find you really do have an agressive colony - report back - there's a lot that can be done to resolve the problem with a hive you can't inspect.

Thank you for the reply.
Never tried a water mister - will give it a go though.
When I say inspect - I was going to look at the supers, see how much in the lower super was capped and re-order the supers with a view to either removing one or putting a clearing board in,, but didn't get past the lifting the crown board.
They were aggressive and I got stung. Bees flying round are OK, but these guys were attacking us.
We will try everything suggested, wear extra gloves, go slow, be less stressed and hopefully enjoy a better result.

 

[DRam]

Think about it - do you 'need' to inspect in the first place?

When I say inspect - I was going to look at the supers, see how much in the lower super was capped and re-order the supers with a view to either removing one or putting a clearing board in,, but didn't get past the lifting the crown board.

 

[Swarm]

Yes, shuffling boxes ready for extraction, we've all done that, not exactly lifting the brood frames. I still say it's the time and you caught them by surprise.
I've had a few who were different bees before 10 am!!

 

[ericbeaumont]

it does not necessarily mean they are behaving agressively.

we thought were aggressive colonies

They were aggressive and I got stung

if you find you really do have an agressive colony

They were aggressive and I got stung...these guys were attacking us.

You've trained your mind to interpret defensive behaviour as aggressive which leaves you on the mental back foot.

Bees are defensive to varying degrees but to label such behaviour as aggressive is mistaken and anthropomorphic. Try and re-frame the bees' behaviour on that occasion as extremely defensive.

Expect bees to be defensive when the barometer drops, or if a swarm is starving, or if the queen has defensive genes, or when a beekeeper inspects when the flyers are at home and a nectar flow has ended.

just leave them in peace

Best advice.

 

[JamezF]

You've trained your mind to interpret defensive behaviour as aggressive which leaves you on the mental back foot.

I'm trying to train myself out of this mode of thinking at the moment

Expect bees to be defensive when the barometer drops

Is that based on observation, or is there some more complex explanation?

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is that based on observation, or is there some more complex explanation?

James

Perhaps it's because as pressure drops the weather worsens and if it drops suddenly there is a storm on the way so the bees are all home anticipating bad weather.
As an aside watching the bees all pile in just before a rainstorm on a sunny day is unbelievable

 

[pargyle]

You've trained your mind to interpret defensive behaviour as aggressive which leaves you on the mental back foot.

Bees are defensive to varying degrees but to label such behaviour as aggressive is mistaken and anthropomorphic. Try and re-frame the bees' behaviour on that occasion as extremely defensive.

Expect bees to be defensive when the barometer drops, or if a swarm is starving, or if the queen has defensive genes, or when a beekeeper inspects when the flyers are at home and a nectar flow has ended.


Best advice.

I agree to a great extent but there is a difference between an overtly defensive colony and one that is actively agressive ... I've only really come across one or two that I would term agressive colonies (not mine I would add). To class a colony as agressive I would suggest:

1. Bees attacking people and pinging and stinging at some distance (many yards) from the hive.
2. Covering the beekeeper in bees trying to find a way into the suit and actively stinging the suit when they are opened up.
3. Following the beekeeper or people moving away from the hive for some distance and continuing to sting/ping.

Anything less than this I would suggest is just defensive behaviour of varying levels - it doesn't really matter what we call it - if it is persistent behaviour from a colony that makes it difficult and unpleasant for the beekeeper to do inspections then it's time for a queen change. You cannot tolerate bees that are persistently badly behaved when the genetics can be changed so readily (not always easily - but it is possible in virtually all cases).

You can only close them up and walk away so many times before you have to do something about it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Is that based on observation, or is there some more complex explanation?

I assumed (without deeper knowledge) that atmospheric electrostatic changes affect our furry flying friends as much as other animals.

Dave Cushman has more information and a quick google found this research doc: Effects of meteorological factors on defensive behaviour of honey bees.

​

 

[DRam]

I agree to a great extent but there is a difference between an overtly defensive colony and one that is actively agressive ... I've only really come across one or two that I would term agressive colonies (not mine I would add). To class a colony as agressive I would suggest:

1. Bees attacking people and pinging and stinging at some distance (many yards) from the hive.
2. Covering the beekeeper in bees trying to find a way into the suit and actively stinging the suit when they are opened up.
3. Following the beekeeper or people moving away from the hive for some distance and continuing to sting/ping.

Anything less than this I would suggest is just defensive behaviour of varying levels - it doesn't really matter what we call it - if it is persistent behaviour from a colony that makes it difficult and unpleasant for the beekeeper to do inspections then it's time for a queen change. You cannot tolerate bees that are persistently badly behaved when the genetics can be changed so readily (not always easily - but it is possible in virtually all cases).

You can only close them up and walk away so many times before you have to do something about it.

1. This hasn't been a huge problem.
2. Yes, this is what we experienced.
3. Yes, for over 50 meters.

Hopefully, this was our fault going at the wrong time of day and upsetting them. We haven't had any concerns about this colony before, it is our biggest colony and is doing well in terms of filling supers.

We are going to look again this Friday at noon, and take on board all the advice, so fingers crossed.

 

[DRam]

UPDATE:
Just to give this some context, we have 6 colonies on this site.
2 of the are recently hived swarms, 1 is doing well and is already drawing comb in a super, the other is not out of the brood box yet and seems to be very slow at expanding.

Of the 4 more established colonies, 1 is only on to its 2 super, 2 are filling their third and are looking for another, but the most prolific is now on its 4th super - and this is the one we are having problems with.

My partner went there at around 11am, and checked that the 5 smaller, less troublesome, colonies were not running out of space, and they were all fine and behaved as expected.

The troublesome one was again very defensively aggressive, she had to add the latest super as they were filling the top one they had. Even just lifting the crown board to allow the other super to be added had her veil covered in bees. She added the super, crown board and roof and retreated some distance with what she could carry. She however had to return to retrieve other items and even going within a few feet of the hive she was again covered in bees.

This is now a problem. We can't just keep adding supers, and we can't just ignore them. Next week we will have to recover some supers, does anybody have any suggestions other than just get on with it and expect it to be unpleasant.

Could it be that in the higher supers the bees aren't getting much of the queens pheromone, and if we can reduce the height of the hive things might actually improve, or is that clutching at straws.

We need to do something next week, as after that we are then away for a week and a bit, and we want to leave all colonies with empty supers to expand into and store honey in.

Any ideas welcome.

 

[enrico]

UPDATE:
Just to give this some context, we have 6 colonies on this site.
2 of the are recently hived swarms, 1 is doing well and is already drawing comb in a super, the other is not out of the brood box yet and seems to be very slow at expanding.

Of the 4 more established colonies, 1 is only on to its 2 super, 2 are filling their third and are looking for another, but the most prolific is now on its 4th super - and this is the one we are having problems with.

My partner went there at around 11am, and checked that the 5 smaller, less troublesome, colonies were not running out of space, and they were all fine and behaved as expected.

The troublesome one was again very defensively aggressive, she had to add the latest super as they were filling the top one they had. Even just lifting the crown board to allow the other super to be added had her veil covered in bees. She added the super, crown board and roof and retreated some distance with what she could carry. She however had to return to retrieve other items and even going within a few feet of the hive she was again covered in bees.

This is now a problem. We can't just keep adding supers, and we can't just ignore them. Next week we will have to recover some supers, does anybody have any suggestions other than just get on with it and expect it to be unpleasant.

Could it be that in the higher supers the bees aren't getting much of the queens pheromone, and if we can reduce the height of the hive things might actually improve, or is that clutching at straws.

We need to do something next week, as after that we are then away for a week and a bit, and we want to leave all colonies with empty supers to expand into and store honey in.

Any ideas welcome.

Okay the time has come to requeen. You need to find and kill the old queen and replace her or combine that hive with another. I would personally wait until spring if at all possible. Go into that hive as little as possible just to take off honey. Reduce to one brood box for winter. In spring when numbers are low find the queen and kill her and combine with a nice hive. If it needs doing more urgently than that then it can be done but you need a careful plan.