BeeBreed News announced 15/02/2017

[Finman]

.
I considered beekeeping profession about 1970 when I studied.

But then I heard that every two, who had tried to start professional beekeeping, they must give up at the age of 30 because their back did not stand all lifting. They stopped it via back surgering.

I decided to keep this as a hobby among others.

After 1975 first energy crisis beekeeping bursted in Finland. Lots of family busines. **** cultivation lifted yields double. Selling honey was not easy any more.

We had a protectionism law, that we cannot import honey or apple before we have sold our own yields. That was rich time in beekeeping. I bought my first apartment with honey money.
.

 

[B+.]

even though we sometimes have our disagreements.
Respect.

Isn't this the basis for true understanding? I have learned a lot from people I have passionately disagreed with. Sometimes, it takes someone to play "devils advocate" to your strongly held beliefs to help you truly understand the truth. Other times, they are just very annoying!

 

[Finman]

.
Stubborn and always right is the basic virtue of a good beekeeper.

Do not be ashamed if you have such a gift.
.

 

[B+.]

The fact that "it is obvious that there will be a loss of benefit from using selected stock over the generations" probably gets right to the heart of the philosophical difference between breeders and rearers. This simple starting point can take each group down a number of different lines of divergent argument.

If you rear queens, even from your best stock, they will eventually return (perhaps in one generation, perhaps in more) to the mean for the area. This may be good, or bad, depending on what that mean is. If they are aggressive but productive, you may consider this a worthwhile trade-off (although I wouldn't). If they are calm but not very productive, that may also be ok to you so long as you get enough honey for your needs and they don't sting your neighbours.
In breeding, you are looking to substantially raise the mean (i.e. the selection difference) in each generation and, over time, transfer that increased performance to the area through daughter queens. The way that Prof Ruttner described it is better:
"A performance that will not be inherited is without significance for the breeder. The essence of breeding is to transmit a certified, above average performance of individual animals to the greatest number of descendants, undiminished and as far as possible enhanced".
Friedrich Ruttner, "Breeding Techniques and Selection for breeding of the Honeybee", p. 8
To me, this encapsulates exactly what breeding is about. It implies that you must assess your stock in order to determine which animals to breed from, exercise control over the pedigree to ensure the maximum possible transmission of valuable traits to the progeny (heritability) and produce as many offspring as possible from the most desirable stock. The argument that has been leveled against this is that too much selection can restrict the alleles present in a population, but, this could only happen if a very large number of daughter queens were introduced to an area (or, if that queen was disproportionately successful in transmitting her genes to the next generation). It would also assume that there was a very restricted number of queen lines available and that variation played no part. Neither of these is accurate: many thousands of queens are assessed each year in the BeeBreed programme. Also, each egg is slightly different from each other egg. Nature rarely stands still or repeats itself.
Ok. Now, I'm beginning to sound like Finman ;-) but you can see where I'm going with this.


More thoughts:
One of the courses I did many years ago looked at the way companies (or rather, the way individuals in charge of formulating strategy) approached problems.
A problem is defined as a gap between the "current state" and some desirable "future state"...whatever that might be.
Now, faced with a gap in performance you really only have four possible solutions
1. Accept the situation and do nothing about it. In other words, accept the current situation.
2. Attempt to influence the situation and narrow the gap so the future state is close to your desired state
3. Attempt to change the way you perceive the problem (often favoured by politicians)
4. Leave the situation (strategic exit from an undesirable situation is also an option worth considering sometimes)
Your own personal beliefs will shape the way you view each problem and how you choose to act.
My background is very much a systems-oriented one so I look at how a process works and try to make plans on how best to improve it. Other people may see it completely differently. I respect that. Its just not the way I'm built.

 

[B+.]

.
Stubborn and always right is the basic virtue of a good beekeeper.

Do not be ashamed if you have such a gift.
.

I don't presume to be always right Finman. I try my best to educate myself but I pray that God gives me the humility to admit it if I am wrong

 

[Finman]

I don't presume to be always right Finman. I try my best to educate myself but I pray that God gives me the humility to admit it if I am wrong

That happens even in better families.
.
Yeah, I would be perfect I would not be here

 

[Fusion_power]

Other times, they are just very annoying!

I try to learn more from my enemies than from my friends.

Years ago, I read a short anecdote where a military tactician asked a soldier "what is the most important thing to know about a weapon"? The soldier promptly responded, "What it can do!" The tactician said, "No, it is most important to know what it cannot do." Think about this a bit and it will be obvious that if you know what a weapon cannot do, inherently, you must also know everything that it can do. Now apply this to beekeeping, bee breeding, and your favorite brew, whether tea or a pint of the pub's finest.

 

[Finman]

I try to learn more from my enemies than from my friends.

.

Aha, but you remember everything wrong. At least what I have taught to you.


.

 

[B+.]

I have been asked several times by private message about the Carnica lines and how they are identified in BeeBreed.

There is a list here (http://www.beebreed.nl/carnica.html). As you can see there is a code number allocated to each line. This appears on the breeders card for each pure mated queen and in the BeeBreed database.

 

[mbc]

If you rear queens, even from your best stock, they will eventually return (perhaps in one generation, perhaps in more) to the mean for the area. This may be good, or bad, depending on what that mean is. If they are aggressive but productive, you may consider this a worthwhile trade-off (although I wouldn't). If they are calm but not very productive, that may also be ok to you so long as you get enough honey for your needs and they don't sting your neighbours.
In breeding, you are looking to substantially raise the mean (i.e. the selection difference) in each generation and, over time, transfer that increased performance to the area through daughter queens. The way that Prof Ruttner described it is better:
"A performance that will not be inherited is without significance for the breeder. The essence of breeding is to transmit a certified, above average performance of individual animals to the greatest number of descendants, undiminished and as far as possible enhanced".
Friedrich Ruttner, "Breeding Techniques and Selection for breeding of the Honeybee", p. 8
To me, this encapsulates exactly what breeding is about. It implies that you must assess your stock in order to determine which animals to breed from, exercise control over the pedigree to ensure the maximum possible transmission of valuable traits to the progeny (heritability) and produce as many offspring as possible from the most desirable stock. The argument that has been leveled against this is that too much selection can restrict the alleles present in a population, but, this could only happen if a very large number of daughter queens were introduced to an area (or, if that queen was disproportionately successful in transmitting her genes to the next generation). It would also assume that there was a very restricted number of queen lines available and that variation played no part. Neither of these is accurate: many thousands of queens are assessed each year in the BeeBreed programme. Also, each egg is slightly different from each other egg. Nature rarely stands still or repeats itself.
Ok. Now, I'm beginning to sound like Finman ;-) but you can see where I'm going with this.


More thoughts:
One of the courses I did many years ago looked at the way companies (or rather, the way individuals in charge of formulating strategy) approached problems.
A problem is defined as a gap between the "current state" and some desirable "future state"...whatever that might be.
Now, faced with a gap in performance you really only have four possible solutions
1. Accept the situation and do nothing about it. In other words, accept the current situation.
2. Attempt to influence the situation and narrow the gap so the future state is close to your desired state
3. Attempt to change the way you perceive the problem (often favoured by politicians)
4. Leave the situation (strategic exit from an undesirable situation is also an option worth considering sometimes)
Your own personal beliefs will shape the way you view each problem and how you choose to act.
My background is very much a systems-oriented one so I look at how a process works and try to make plans on how best to improve it. Other people may see it completely differently. I respect that. Its just not the way I'm built.

All very well and good but dependant on continual imputs and by your own admisdion any improvement will soon revert to the mean once the selection and mating control ceases.
Working with bees endemic to an area a sustained breeding program need not falter and fade once a player leaves the scene but the the torch/torches can be passed on and the benefits should lift the mean for the common good in the future.
This desired "future state" need not be a personal short term thing but a long term project to lift all beekeeping.
I don't envisage the carnica subspecies of bee being compatible with the background mean for natural mating round here so from my point of view that rules it out for any sustainable breeding program.

 

[B+.]

All very well and good but dependant on continual imputs and by your own admisdion any improvement will soon revert to the mean once the selection and mating control ceases.

Carnica is highly suitable to my area and, I dare say, much of the UK. I have proven its worth over and over again in my own apiaries where I get yields far above the mean for this area (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744).
I think it depends on what sort of beekeeper you are/want to be. If you are happy with ~50 lbs of honey (if you're lucky - some get less) and mongrel bees (endemic?) that swarm regularly and are overly defensive, thats fine. I am trying to address my comments to those who have the vision to see what is happening throughout Europe and want some of that here too. By incorporating bees that are far above the mean, you are also raising the mean of all the other bees in your area which, although unselected, benefit from your drones.
Some people will see the possibilities and others wont. Thats fine. Some will lead, others can follow.

 

[Beefriendly]

Carnica is highly suitable to my area and, I dare say, much of the UK. I have proven its worth over and over again in my own apiaries where I get yields far above the mean for this area (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744).
I think it depends on what sort of beekeeper you are/want to be. If you are happy with ~50 lbs of honey (if you're lucky - some get less) and mongrel bees (endemic?) that swarm regularly and are overly defensive, thats fine. I am trying to address my comments to those who have the vision to see what is happening throughout Europe and want some of that here too. By incorporating bees that are far above the mean, you are also raising the mean of all the other bees in your area which, although unselected, benefit from your drones.
Some people will see the possibilities and others wont. Thats fine. Some will lead, others can follow.

You are spot on. One shouldn't really worry about the types of bees other beekeepers wish to keep. If they are happy and content with whatever strain of bee they use, it's great. Perhaps those who try to push the boundaries shouldn't expect everyone to want to jump onto the same wagon. Nor should they try to belittle people who may see this type of beekeeping as "not for them".
I can think of several beekeepers who wouldn't know what to do with 135kgs of honey per hive. The marketing and selling of the end product is an avenue that not all feel comfortable with. And if your goal is simply enough honey for family and friends then that aim should be appreciated just as much as those who want more honey. There are strains of bees around that will suit both these goals.
I'd just like people to be a bit more transparent about the general properties of the different strains available rather than treating "ones own favorite" type as a full on advertising campaign, emphasizing and exaggerating the good, never mentioning the bad and brick-batting any strain other than theirs as not being suitable.
In the case of fecund queens there is a lot more work involved in their management than single brood box bees. I'm beginning to appreciate that not everyones want to work that hard at their hobby. It's a broad church.

 

[For want of a better word]

All very well and good but dependant on continual imputs and by your own admisdion any improvement will soon revert to the mean once the selection and mating control ceases.
Working with bees endemic to an area a sustained breeding program need not falter and fade once a player leaves the scene but the the torch/torches can be passed on and the benefits should lift the mean for the common good in the future.
This desired "future state" need not be a personal short term thing but a long term project to lift all beekeeping.
I don't envisage the carnica subspecies of bee being compatible with the background mean for natural mating round here so from my point of view that rules it out for any sustainable breeding program.

Sometimes one has to take off the rose tinted spectacles it seems!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Sometimes one has to take off the rose tinted spectacles it seems!

Rose tinted spectacles?

I have been doing this for about 10 years. My posts are literally littered with photographic or other evidence that illustrates what I am saying isn't theoretical.
Why are you being so negative?

 

[Beefriendly]

I don't envisage the carnica subspecies of bee being compatible with the background mean for natural mating round here so from my point of view that rules it out for any sustainable breeding program.

Not quite sure how any open mated breeding program can be considered sustainable when you have no control over the drone lines. It's like tossing a coin.
With controlled mating you have real chance of getting somewhere, as B+ does with II.

 

[B+.]

Not quite sure how any open mated breeding program can be considered sustainable when you have no control over the drone lines. It's like tossing a coin.
With controlled mating you have real chance of getting somewhere, as B+ does with II.

The important point is that anyone could do this. You don't need II equipment if you have the right breeding stock (which are easily obtainable) and are prepared to get organised and send the virgin queens to the island mating stations (the fee is about 8euro per queen). Its not expensive (especially if combined with a trip to Europe, otherwise it is courier costs).

Lets say, for the sake of argument, you sent/took 20 virgin queens (in mating boxes like these http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3753). Assume a conservative 70% were successfully mated...that gives you 14 pure bred queens to introduce and test. The best of which you breed from the follwing year. Imagine how quickly the mean values in all characteristics, not just honey yield, would go up if even just a few people in your area did this,

 

[Beefriendly]

That is very interesting B+. Do you have any further details of who controls the various mating stations. I've known about postal queen mating's for a while but for some obstinate reason always thought they were restricted to people in the country of the mating station. But with today's fast courier services.....

Virgin queens are not a problem.......but the additional paperwork might be.......
papers to include are pedigree, health certificates, etc. are also required.

 

[B+.]

That is very interesting B+. Do you have any further details of who controls the various mating stations. I've known about postal queen mating's for a while but for some obstinate reason always thought they were restricted to people in the country of the mating station. But with today's fast courier services.....

Virgin queens are not a problem.......but the additional paperwork might be.......
papers to include are pedigree, health certificates, etc. are also required.

Yes. Health certificates are required (from APHA or a "competent authority") for any international shipment of live animals. It is controlled through a system called "TRACES" but anyone with cattle, horses, etc will know about this. Its no big deal.

The breeding stations are all listed in BeeBreed (https://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/ZWS/start.php?vRID=C). Click on "Breeding values" and then "Allocation of mating stations".
Each association controls its own mating station so you really need to know which drone lines are being used on which island. This probably hasn't been decided yet as the breeding values have only recently been published.

 

[B+.]

Each association controls its own mating station so you really need to know which drone lines are being used on which island. This probably hasn't been decided yet as the breeding values have only recently been published.

I just checked. Kirchhain (Association code 1) has already published information on the drones it will be using this year. I haven't checked any of the others but the NL group have a meeting on 16th March to finalise the selection for Vlieland

Kirchhain are planning to use 6 daughter colonies of 7-45-513-2015 between 1st June and 15th July, then 8 daughters of 7-45-507-2015 between 15th May and 1st August. The "TM" (Type of Mating") code of 3 means line breeding (see "Selektion bei der honigbiene" p165)

 

[B+.]

Do you have any further details of who controls the various mating stations. I've known about postal queen mating's for a while but for some obstinate reason always thought they were restricted to people in the country of the mating station. But with today's fast courier services.....

If I wanted to send queens to one of the islands, I would arrange it through Prof Brascamp who supervises the NL group because I don't speak German.
You couldn't just send any old queen, otherwise the system would fall apart. Each queen has a breeding card (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3761) and its ancestry is defined in BeeBreed so there is information on the lineage of every queen. This card accompanies the queen under the lid of the ewk (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3749).