BeeBreed News announced 15/02/2017

[Finman]

Memory is a fickle beast so records can be very important..

I do not mind if my memory fails. There are more important things in my life than exact figures of honey yield.

When summer is gone, it is gone. And next summer will be something else.

We have had last two last summers that nothing to learn about it.

One thing I learned last summer. If I see 200 hectares rape field, it is a trap. Don't even piss to that direction.

If bees do not get yield from that rape field, then they have nothing where to go. Alternatives are too far.
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[B+.]

Finmann is totally correct... good bees AND good forage are essential

I don't think anyone is disputing the relationship between genetic heritage and available forage Icanhopit. We're in agreement about that.

The island mating stations I refer to are in the Wadden sea off the North coast of Germany all the way around to the North West of The Netherlands. These have been established for a very long time. There is another off the coast of Croatia which is used by the AGT and the University of Zagreb.
There is a lot of German work that indicates that land-based mating stations are not secure so the only real alternative is instrumental insemination. This does require a bit more commitment than open mating though.

 

[B+.]

If bees do not get yield from that rape field, then they have nothing where to go. Alternatives are too far.
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I have seen this too. Several years ago, I saw my colonies flying over a field of OSR next to their apiary to get to a hedgerow containing lots of hawthorn. Thats why I prefer test sites that contain a range of forage. As one source goes into decline, another takes over. My biggest problem is late July until the ivy flowers (if it does). This is the difficult period for bees in my area. I have considered taking them to heather but haven't got the logistics sorted yet to do that.

 

[Beefriendly]

I do not mind if my memory fails.
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It will happen to all of us, some sooner rather than later.

 

[Finman]

Originally Posted by Finman View Post
I do not mind if my memory fails.
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It will happen to all of us, some sooner rather than later.

Perhaps I am not only one. When we have beekeeping digital hive Records, I have wondered, why there are satellite located coordinates....

..... where are my hives..... the first question in the morning... where is my car!!!

Has everyone put his car coordninates to the record to find the car!!! And the smoker, what smoker?? EU banned it?

When I understand the satellite Navigator site system of hives, I bet that it is too late. And how many iPads I have forgotten into willow bushes.

http://www.beeculture.com/better-beekeeping-with-better-records/

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[B+.]

Has everyone put his car coordninates to the record to find the car!!!

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You don't need to Finman. Your moile phone can be tracked anywhere on the planet. I was shocked when I realised that my daily route could be tracked through my gmail history

 

[Finman]

You don't need to Finman. Your moile phone can be tracked anywhere on the planet. I was shocked when I realised that my daily route could be tracked through my gmail history

My farmer friend, the same age and a beekeeper, he must have two phones. When he drops another to the hay field or to his barn, or onto the floor of the car, he calls with another, where the sound may appear. And it has happened often.

 

[B+.]

I get the impression from your description that the bee breeders of whom you are a part have drifted into something of a "middle ground" that relies much more heavily upon the widespread sharing of promising progeny and natural mating in areas that are protected from unwanted drones (but, reading between the lines, a certain amount of instrumental insemination must still go on in the early stages of individual strain creation). This softer approach must make it a harder (or a considerably longer or more wasteful process) to "fix" desired genes in a strain but I assume that the benefits of playing a longer game in strain development are definitely worth it in terms of increased diversity in the rest of the genome and the preservation of more CSD genes. In a way, it seems to me that the approach you describe tries to harness some of the benefits that are available in the queen rearing approach.

By the time queens from these promising strains reach you in Bedfordshire, how do you proceed? Do you instrumentally inseminate carefully-chosen crosses; do you use protected mating areas (and how do you achieve this in land-locked Bedfordshire); or do you simply allow them to open mate?

I wanted to return to this post because I don't think I addressed this question properly earlier.
It took me quite a while to appreciate just how rational and thought out this approach is. It originated in Germany but has increasingly been adopted all over Europe. You can't go far wrong by reading any of the work published by Prof Ruttner or Prof Bienefeld. Dr Ralph Buchler has also made valuable contributions in this area. The more recent work by Prof Brascamp (who is the supervisor of the Dutch breeding group I am a member of) is a refinement of the relationship matrix and has had an effect on the level of inbreeding and reliability quoted in BeeBreed previously (the inbreeding coefficient was slightly higher and the reliability was quite a lot higher).
The way that I have come to understand it is that, in breeding, we are not trying to produce a single "sparkler" (or "blinden" as Prof Ruttner called it) that could not be reproduced but groups of sisters that provide evidence on each others value as breeding animals. This is what the breeding value really is.
The approach certainly did seem to be different in Europe from that taken in America, at least in the past. I do sense a convergence happening behind the scenes though. Whatever people think looking in from the outside isn't necessarily the way things are when you talk to the scientists doing the work. It can come as a shock to some people that scientists are quite visionary but very rational people.
A programme is all about continuous improvement and that is why we measure things against a 5-year moving average for each of the traits but with an eye on the total breeding value (which is a composite of the individual components) too. This is how we make the best choice that we can at the time.
Instrumental insemination is still an important part of breeding, particularly in the area of emphasizing traits like VSH. For me personally, it is the only way I can "breed" bees rather than just "raise queens". There are just too many beekeepers near me to guarantee the results any other way. I do work closely with a number of farms and have apiaries every 1-2 miles apart, each with 20-30 daughters from my best queens from the previous year, but, I still don't believe that this gives me the absolute certainty I am looking for. It would be more than enough for the average beekeeper, but, I don't feel it is certain enough for me.

 

[Finman]

I do work closely with a number of farms and have apiaries every 1-2 miles apart, each with 20-30 daughters from my best queens from the previous year,.

How big are those daughter hives? Frames or boxes?

1-2 miles apart = they use same pastures.

Previous year queens means normal hive? Not new nucs.

 

[B+.]

How big are those daughter hives? Frames or boxes?

1-2 miles apart = they use same pastures.

Previous year queens means normal hive? Not new nucs.

They are daughters of my test queens - depending on when they're made some are stronger than others. I try to overwinter them in double Langstroths although 1 or 2 may still be in singles. Basically, I make daughters from the colonies I feel are going to do well based on early test results. Last year I thought 1037 would be the best so I made a load of daughters from her as an insurance policy. As it turned out, later tests showed that she wasn't the best so I had to make daughters from another queen. These weren't as strong because they were started later.
They are 1-2 miles apart deliberately. Their purpose isn't to produce the optimum honey yield but to provide a large number of strong, mature drones which are all descended from the same (4a) queen. The colonies still produce reasonably well though (more like 2 boxes of honey on average) but I have to stress that its the drones genes I want more than the honey.
I suppose it is difficult for you to understand Finman, but, my objectives are not the same as yours. I get more than enough honey for my needs so I am motivated more by improving my breeding stock.

 

[Finman]

I suppose it is difficult for you to understand Finman, but, my objectives are not the same as yours. I get more than enough honey for my needs so I am motivated more by improving my breeding stock.

I have no difficulty to understand you. I am master of science in biology from Helsinki University. I understand strangest things in the world.

 

[B+.]

I have no difficulty to understand you. I am master of science in biology from Helsinki University. I understand strangest things in the world.

I'm glad you understand.
My wife has the M.Sc. in our family. I have an MBA but I wish I had done science now. It would have been much more useful to me in my bee breeding.

 

[Hunajavelho]

B+,

Finman is backyard beekeeper= no one to take seriousley. 10-20 hives.
The goal can not be the same, he has to make the most of what he has. I have allways wondered how come has he never made a business out of his superior beekeeping, after all he has been doing the backyard thing for 50+ years, yes now you are to old but why not 20 years ago...

If you combine two hives or if you add brood to a hive, you can not say it is yield from one hive, specially if you want to choose a breeder queen.
Ofcourse you can do this to maximize your yields but, it's not the yield/hive, if done like that. But if you have to do it, you have a crappy queen - simple as that.

Have you ever consider how much yield you loose when moving every other day. You talk about the hours bees gather nectar, yet you do not take that to consideration when moving and bees have to relocate them self and find the pastures, takes also some hours of the best gathering hours.

If you are a good professional beekeeper you have to keep track and really SELECT your breeder queens - simple as that. Germany and Denmark are good examples of this and all the rest of Europe comes far behind, even crawling, I would say.

 

[Hunajavelho]

I have no difficulty to understand you. I am master of science in biology from Helsinki University. I understand strangest things in the world.

So you say, yet you don't act like one.
- yes, now you will tell me that your intelligenzia is far more superior, LOL

 

[B+.]

If you are a good professional beekeeper you have to keep track and really SELECT your breeder queens - simple as that. Germany and Denmark are good examples of this and all the rest of Europe comes far behind, even crawling, I would say.

The UK is lightyears behind IMO but I hope to encourage others to see what I can see. The opportunities are immense!

 

[Finman]

B+,


Finman is backyard beekeeper= no one to take seriousley. 10-20 hives.
The goal can not be the same, he has to make the most of what he has. I have allways wondered how come has he never made a business out of his superior beekeeping, after all he has been doing the backyard thing for 50+ years, yes now you are to old but why not 20 years ago...

If you combine two hives or if you add brood to a hive, you can not say it is yield from one hive, specially if you want to choose a breeder queen.
Ofcourse you can do this to maximize your yields but, it's not the yield/hive, if done like that. But if you have to do it, you have a crappy queen - simple as that.

Have you ever consider how much yield you loose when moving every other day. You talk about the hours bees gather nectar, yet you do not take that to consideration when moving and bees have to relocate them self and find the pastures, takes also some hours of the best gathering hours.

If you are a good professional beekeeper you have to keep track and really SELECT your breeder queens - simple as that. Germany and Denmark are good examples of this and all the rest of Europe comes far behind, even crawling, I would say.

Moi Sigge


Some play golf, some fishes salmons in Norway. I drive with my hives from field to field. I have allways do what I want.



Hunajavelho is from Finland. He is a youg guy. Couple of hives but he knows everything.

He told that he starts to breed varroa resistant bees. with small cells. I told to him that it will not succeed and he got angry about that.


I phone to you tomorrow, or perhaps not.
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[Finman]

B+,
I have allways wondered how come has he never made a business out of his superior beekeeping, after all he has been doing the backyard thing for 50+ years, .

Surprise. I studied in university and I have had another profession.
I have worked whole of my life in the biggest organisation of Finland.

Carry on your wondering.

Over 95% out of British beekeepers do those backyard things.

You hives are in front of house, like I have. Sunny Place.
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[Hunajavelho]

He is a youg guy. Couple of hives but he knows everything.

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60 hives and growing. started 2013 with 2.

As far as for varroa resistance, I have seen the light
But I can tell you that Lunden's queens are surviving without treatments!

 

[Finman]

60 hives and growing. started 2013 with 2.

Ei muuta kuin menoksi........ ja kovia linkouksia

Seems to go fine
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[Hunajavelho]

Ei muuta kuin menoksi........ ja kovia linkouksia

Seems to go fine
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Tehdään näin.

I have learned a lot from Finman, he is truly a great and experienced beekeeper, even though we sometimes have our disagreements.
Respect.