Bee improvement????

[Hawklord]

I'm trying to understand how to improve the the bees I already have. I have been producing my own queens until 2011 when somebody decided it would be fun to knock my hives over leaving me with 1 queen, consequently they all swarmed and it was too late in the year to start producing more queens. I then bought some AMM from an importer near Liverpool. Last year I managed to rear 3 new queens from the AMM's but with the weather being rubbish I wasn't confident that they would make it through winter so bought some more from same supplier. These imports are very runny and not very good honey producers and have gone to drone layers within 12 months so I won't be wasting money buying them again. So weather permitting I'll be raising my own queens again this year. So my first question is whats in an egg? I use swarm cells to create my new queens but is this wrong, and why?

 

[mbc]

So my first question is whats in an egg?
Each egg has sixteen chromosomes(half the chromosomes of its mother)and is genetically slightly different to every other egg produced by the queen.
If it is fertilised (necessary for queen rearing) it will also contain the 16 chromosomes from the particular drone(one of anything up to about 40 drones) that provided the sperm that fertilised the egg. Each and every egg is unique.

I use swarm cells to create my new queens but is this wrong, and why?

Not necessarlly wrong, but the tendancy over time would be to breed in swarmyness if you were to propogate from those queens who produce swarm cells readily each season.

 

[Chris B]

Swarm cells are okay if you apply common sense.
Swarming isn't just down to genetic factors, and all strains of bee swarm to some degree.
One (imperfect) guide used by some is how many swarm cells are they making. If they make 60 queen cells they probably aren't good breeding stock. If they only make a dozen then they probably are.
And maybe good temper is more important than swarminess to you? The main thing is breed from bees you consider to be your best - using swarm cells is of secondary importance.

Having said all that, if you have good tempered bees that aren't making swarm cells, they are better breeders, and the only way to breed from them is some kind of artificial inducement.

 

[drumgerry]

Teach yourself to graft - it's really not that difficult

 

[Hawklord]

Mine produce about 8 swarm cells, and I use the colony that seems to be best temp wise and most prolific. What is to be gained by the beekeeper choosing the egg and not the bees ie grafting?

 

[mbc]

What is to be gained by the beekeeper choosing the egg and not the bees ie grafting?

volume

 

[Hawklord]

Volume of what? Surely an egg that starts off in a queen cup is always going to be a queen if it is allowed to do so.

 

[drumgerry]

What is to be gained? Er...you get to choose who's going to be the mother to your next crop of queens rather than the bees.

And it's very young larvae that get grafted not eggs.

 

[Hawklord]

So larva selected by the beek is superior because? By selecting the colony with the right queen I understand.

 

[drumgerry]

There's any number of qualities you might base the selection of a breeder queen on - what they are depends on you really but might include temper, low swarming impulse, stillness on the combs etc etc.

 

[Hawklord]

The point I'm trying to make is, if I choose my best queen and graft a larvae from it and also alow them to build swarm cells, which will produce the best queen and why?

 

[drumgerry]

How long is a piece of string? That's not a question anyone can answer properly. I suspect the swarm cells might produce a better fed queen.

But you'll be waiting around for them to produce swarm cells when you could already have started the process or even already have mated queens from grafting.

 

[mbc]

The point I'm trying to make is, if I choose my best queen and graft a larvae from it and also alow them to build swarm cells, which will produce the best queen and why?

There is a suggestion that eggs chosen by the bees themselves to make queencells from the word go produce queens with larger ovaries but its marginal and totally undetectable by current techniques if compared to queens resulting from graffting from larvae under 36 hours old.

Volume of what? Surely an egg that starts off in a queen cup is always going to be a queen if it is allowed to do so.

Possible volume of virgin queens. Graffting alows almost limitless propagation of a chosen queen or line of queens.

 

[For want of a better word]

The point I'm trying to make is, if I choose my best queen and graft a larvae from it and also alow them to build swarm cells, which will produce the best queen and why?

You would select a colony that has the specific set of qualities you want to propagate... good temper, good honey producer, quiet on comb, lack of swarming tendency etc... there are a lot of traits to select.
The queen in this colony will be the "mother" to all the bees in the colony, the "father" or more correctly sperm supplier of each worker bee may be different if the queen mated with a number of drones.
Drones in the colony will have the same genetic make up as the queen of the colony.

The reason for grafting, using Jenter or Nicot systems and getting the bees to raise numerous queens in a beekeeper controlled environment is merely to produce a high number of queens.
Basically there would be not a dash of difference genetically

You could try the Millar notching system... produces good queens.

Last season I produced 50 AMM queens, then open mated 40 in an area flooded with AMM drones ( Rame Peninsular Cornwall) resulting in only 10 new and requeened colonies that have made it through the winter.

Similarly New Zealand (lingusta) produced only 7 new and requeened colonies that have made it through the winter. ( from 50 or so grafted queens)

Previous years I have notched and taken swarm queen cells but the results have not been at all good, I think using this method I raised about 4 nucs from 20 queens ( when I had Buckfasts)

So you see it is a numbers game.

The colonies to re queen with mated queens come from splitting up colonies you feel happy to sacrifice!
Hope this helps explain why beebreeders graft !

Now we go down the road of II.........

 

[Hawklord]

I guess that producing more queens than needed would stand a greater chance of producing queens with the right characteristics. So how long does it take for the queens full potential to be realised, can it be done in a mini nuc?

 

[Hivemaker.]

So how long does it take for the queens full potential to be realised, can it be done in a mini nuc?

No, it cannot be done in a mini nuc.

 

[mbc]

I guess that producing more queens than needed would stand a greater chance of producing queens with the right characteristics. So how long does it take for the queens full potential to be realised, can it be done in a mini nuc?

Its possible to check a queen lays a good percentage of viable healthy eggs in a mini nuc, but its unusual to leave one in a mini nuc long enough to evaluate her progeny (mini nucs will overcrowd very quickly once there's hatching brood).
Her full potential will arguably only be realised in her first full year heading a production colony.

 

[For want of a better word]

Use of the mating or mini nuke is to check the queen has been mated .. and is not a drone layer!

Potential can only realistically be evaluated after a season or two!

 

[Hawklord]

So I guess the queens I've bought in haven't been tested properly as they are turning into drone layers. What sort of garauntee do suppliers give?

 

[drumgerry]

Sorry but I don't think there's going to be much of a guarantee with a cheap imported queen. If you want or need to buy in queens your best bet would be to try to source them locally and from someone who lets their queens establish a proper brood pattern in their mininuc before sending them out to buyers.