Bee Improvement Day in Cornwall

[gavin]

What's your planned IPM regime for Acarine?

Isn't current day Amm resistant to acarine Dan? Even in the Varroa-free areas of W and N Scotland it isn't a problem more than very occasionally.

 

[dilys]

Were they ever prone to it?

 

[RoofTops]

Were they ever prone to it?

It used to be thought acarine was what caused Isle of Wight Disease (and did for most AMM) but I think current thinking is this is not true as the descriptions of bees suffering from IoWD do not reflect how bees with terminal acarine are observed to behave.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Whatever it was,Manley worked out that methyl salicylate sorted the problem out for him.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Planned IPM for acarine...pass.

May be a good idea to incorporate some Buckfasts into the breeding program,as part of any IPM,as they were bred to be resistant to acarine.

 

[mbc]

History tells us that the susceptible amm were wiped out, so its a shame that the impatience of greedy beekeepers at the time thwarted efforts to multiply the remaining resistant native amm by flooding the environment with imported foreign bees

 

[Norton]

by flooding the environment with imported foreign bees

Yes especially those from France and Holland.

 

[RoofTops]

History tells us that the susceptible amm were wiped out, so its a shame that the impatience of greedy beekeepers at the time thwarted efforts to multiply the remaining resistant native amm by flooding the environment with imported foreign bees

The resistant bees were the ones Bro' Adam started with - but they weren't AMM. He started with the bees which he saw survived the disease and records suggest they were of Italian origin. He subsequently looked at lots of other bees but it was starting with "survivor colonies" (to shamelessly and evilly steal a phrase) that got him started on his life's work.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

The resistant bees were the ones Bro' Adam started with - but they weren't AMM. He started with the bees which he saw survived the disease and records suggest they were of Italian origin. He subsequently looked at lots of other bees but it was starting with "survivor colonies" (to shamelessly and evilly steal a phrase) that got him started on his life's work.

And the survivors from the rest of the nation?

 

[Norton]

The resistant bees were the ones Bro' Adam started with - but they weren't AMM

Some of them were AMM crossed with Ligurian. You can see the story at this link:
http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_BA_1929.html

 

[RoofTops]

And the survivors from the rest of the nation?

I suspect they weren't really survivors - they just didn't come into contact with IoWD. This is all speculation on my part but it seems to fit the facts in the sense if AMM survived anywhere in the UK it was at the "edges".

 

[DanBee]

Were they ever prone to it?

Yes, research the Isle of Wight disease, which was linked with Acarine, and have a look at the texts on bee races and breeding.

 

[DanBee]

Isn't current day Amm resistant to acarine Dan? Even in the Varroa-free areas of W and N Scotland it isn't a problem more than very occasionally.

A side effect of the use of chemical miticides over the past 20 years to control Varroa is that Acarine has been similarly controlled. Even thymol is said to be effective against Acarine, and that is favoured as a 'soft' control. Thus any selection pressure for Acarine resistance in bees has been greatly reduced, if not removed.

My general concern is that with the appetite for reduced and 'softer' Varroa controls, we will see a revival in the fortunes of Acarine.

In your varroa-free areas, the selection pressure for Acarine resistance hasn't been altered due to the absence of miticides for Varroa control.

 

[DanBee]

It used to be thought acarine was what caused Isle of Wight Disease (and did for most AMM) but I think current thinking is this is not true as the descriptions of bees suffering from IoWD do not reflect how bees with terminal acarine are observed to behave.

The work of Dr. Bailey in the 1950's on bee viruses concluded that the symptoms of IoW disease were in fact those of Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus (CBPV). However, acarine infestation was a significant factor in the reports of IoW disease, and in the large-scale importation of Acarine-resistant stocks from Europe.

Varroa and Acarine both puncture the exoskeleton of the bee and feed directly on its blood. Just as we consider Varroa to be an important vector of viruses, e.g. DWV, so we should also consider that an infestation/epidemic of Acarine mites would similarly act as a vector, e.g. of CBPV.

 

[DanBee]

what Amm characteristics are you thinking of? (to select against)

Principal:
poor temper
slow spring build-up

Secondary:
acarine susceptibility
small population

I'm very open to any ideas you might have as part of that process, particularly as a bee farmer with a vested interest in the health of his stocks.

One problem you will have is that if your chosen bee performs poorly as a farmed bee, particularly in terms of health, as a honey gatherer, or in terms of its temper or swarminess, you will find that those who keep bees for some or all of their income will be unwilling to adopt it. Unless you can demonstrate that your bee is equal or superior to what they currently have, you will always be in the position of having a large but different genetic pool on your doorstep.

My argument is that the current 'mongrel' bee reflects this gene pool and this reality; bee farmers do not change breed of bee on a whim. Thus starting from the best of the local bee and improving from there will be more prone to successful adoption and successful propagation than actively starting from somewhere else.

 

[DanBee]

History tells us that the susceptible amm were wiped out,

Actually it was not just Amm - any bee of any race that exhibited susceptibility to Acarine was affected. Significant losses were reported on mainland Europe too (France and Italy spring to mind). During the 1970's & 80's 'tracheal mite' (Acarine) was the scourge of North American beekeeping.

 

[Norton]

My general concern is that with the appetite for reduced and 'softer' Varroa controls, we will see a revival in the fortunes of Acarine.

Not if you use Acarapis resistant bees, for example Buckfast.

During the 1970's & 80's 'tracheal mite' (Acarine) was the scourge of North American beekeeping.

That was because of the widespread use of light yellow coloured Italian bees, meat producers and gluttons that were developed for the package/pollination industry. This particular type of bee has no resistance against Acarapis. The yellow NZ bees had a similar fate and if you again refer to the link in post#30 you will see that they imported some queens from the USA and that these went down with acarine.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

Principal:
poor temper
slow spring build-up

Secondary:
acarine susceptibility
small population

That's all part of the selection and improvement!!!

I've worked plenty of well tempered Amm.
You just eliminate the poor temper.
Same for any strain.

We just aim to improve the desired characteristics.
And I don't think it's implausible or difficult to select for good temper and a quick Spring build up (if that's what you want.) Within any strain there is diversity. You just select for your best characteristics from your best colonies. You work with what you've got and I don't think any bee is perfect.




One problem you will have is that if your chosen bee performs poorly as a farmed bee, particularly in terms of health, as a honey gatherer, or in terms of its temper or swarminess, you will find that those who keep bees for some or all of their income will be unwilling to adopt it.

Well, again, that's the whole point of 'Bee Improvement'.
To help it perform well.
It's continually evolving and I don't ever think it will be perfect.
If something is poor, we won't breed from it.

People don't have to adopt it if they don't want to.




Unless you can demonstrate that your bee is equal or superior to what they currently have, you will always be in the position of having a large but different genetic pool on your doorstep.

I/we have no agenda or imperative to demonsatrate, that 'our' bee is superior.
That is simply not the correct stance for anyone to take. And is asking for people to shoot the group down.
Anyone can pick holes in anyones plans and intentions.
Our aim is to work with and improve our native bee.
The group will present their research and talk about our aims and intentions, but there is no agenda to make people convert.
If people like the ideas and are on board, great, if not, then at the very least one hopes people will select to improve their own stock, over and against importing anything.


My argument is that the current 'mongrel' bee reflects this gene pool and this reality; bee farmers do not change breed of bee on a whim. Thus starting from the best of the local bee and improving from there will be more prone to successful adoption and successful propagation than actively starting from somewhere else.

It is not aimed at making bee farmers change their bees!!!!

It is not aimed at making anyone change their bees.

It is simply a group working locally to improve our native bees between us.
And as I say, we hope at the very least to encourage selection and improvement of one's own local 'mongrel' stock. To try to reduce importation. It is not elitist and the only bee is the Amm bee far from it.
Every bee has pitfalls. No programme is perfect. And anyone can shoot holes in anyones plans if that is their agenda. But to what avail? It's not about point scoring, or saying my way/bee is better than yours.
I will certainly not be backed into a corner it is not my intention to be in, of going from raising awareness of a local bee breeding programme (which is the purpose of my post), to somehow trying to defend our choice of the Amm bee! No it's not perfect and never will be. The whole premise is that it should be enjoyed, should bring beekeepers together and as I say, at the very least try to get people to select from their own stock, if it is not realistic to maintain a strain (as you rightly point out), against importing bees and more genes. We would like beekeepers to work together in improving bees as a whole. We work withn a strain, because we can get more consistency that way, we like the native bee and because we can maintain it largely in certain areas.
If people like what we are doing, we encourage them to join us.
I don't think any of the above should be knocked. There is enough of that in beekeeping circles.
I am unsure whether you understand the actual benign aims and intentions of the group, and maybe this whole discussion of Amm has contorted the topic away from its true purpose...raising awareness of the local breeding programme, which actively encourages others to join in, or put it into practice, however pragmatically they need to for their own personal situation.
There is no exclusivity of Amm being the only way and the only bee, which is what I feel this topic is wrongly heading towards.
Yes it's our choice of bee.
But it is not impressed onto people and no one has ever said, or will ever say, in the group that it is THE best, ultimate, perfect bee and if circumstance dictates you can only improve your mongrel, then improve your mongrel.
It's not worldwide domination and no one is trying to make anyone convert.
Not an amateur, not a bee farmer.

As you know, the group is partly co-ordinated by Jo.
And world Amm bee conversion is just not in line with his, my, or the group's aims.

I hope that clears it up.
It's not our way or no way!

 

[DanBee]

NB you have misunderstood my intention and are getting far too defensive. It's not about point scoring and it saddens me that you think that. There is a view out there that Amm is the best simply "because" and that it is morally wrong to consider that any other strain, or indeed mongrels, have any right to be present in the UK; often this black-and-white view comes from those with the most enthusiasm and the least experience. I am glad to see that you can see beyond this. Take a breather

I am not shooting holes in your plans, merely trying to encourage balance and even-handed treatment of performance and positive characteristics, rather than deciding at the outset overly-restrictive parameters. I don't care if your perfect bee turns out to be some non-descript mongrel, pure Amm, classic Buckfast, or pure Ligustica for that matter, but the advice from the outset would not be to decide to limit yourself to one bee due simply due to aesthetics. That, sadly, is what morphometry does because of the blinkered way it is used in breeding programmes in the UK; not the fault of the tool, merely the way it is used.

The point of making your bee workable and appealing for those around you is not to support some sort of moralistic crusade to coerce everyone to adopt your choice, but to deal with the simple reality that unless you can encourage its adoption around you, particularly by those with greater numbers of stocks, you will be forever chasing the problem that whatever you do to select and improve is swamped by the differing choices and stocks that surround you.

Have a read of the length NZ bees thread from about a year ago, which dealt with the large-scale importation of Carnicas into close proximity with Ron Hoskins' varroa tolerance breeding programme in Swindon. Aside from the hysteria and mud slinging, there was a credible concern that the work of the Swindon bee breeding group would be thwarted or even lost altogether due to the present of such a large and different gene pool within mating distance. This is the situation that I forsee if you cannot convince those around you that your bee is worth adopting.

Breeding and improvement is not solely about diligence and commitment, it is also a numbers game. If you get outnumbered, any amount of diligence or commitment is sadly wasted

 

[The Cumbrian]

Just playing devils advocate for a moment.

If Apis melifera melifera is the native bee to Britain and the others (carniolan Italian etc.) aren't, a number of random thoughts cross my mind.

If the amm is the native surely under international conventions aren't the government supposed to be protecting it and even possibly reintroducing it to areas where it was.

Secondly if the other "types" aren't native isn't it illegal to release them into the wild?