Bee Improvement Day in Cornwall

[Black Comb]

From memory this has been discussed before.
If you were talking about a species this might hold water but these different bees are classed as sub species so the government will not do anything.

 

[Norton]

You will probably find that the above applies to species and not subspecies.

 

[The Cumbrian]

You will probably find that the above applies to species and not subspecies.

Firstly please remember I did say I was playing devils advocate but what is a subspecies today can become a full species tomorrow.

Take the Canada Goose (Branta canadensis) and the Cackling Goose (Branta hutchinsii). Until 2005 the Cackling Goose was classed as one of 12 or so sub species and is now classed as a full species. I would suggest many sub species of Apis mellifera show as much variation as the Canada Goose and the Cackling Goose do.

 

[Norton]

I don't know about the geese. Maybe someone did a DNA analysis and found that they are distinct species.
The important thing to remember is that species are natural fixed entities that usually cannot produce fertile offspring when they hybridise. Subspecies are a human invention that can hybridise and produce fertile offspring with other subspecies of the same species. As we all know, the subspecies of Apis mellifera can all interbreed successfully.

 

[For want of a better word]

Not true...
Bleak and Bitterling hybridise naturally.............

and what about Anoles? ( sort of lizardy things)

 

[Norton]

That is why I wrote usually - there are some exceptions.

 

[The Cumbrian]

Waterfowl not uncommonly produce fertile hybrids and even mammals e.g. Beefalo so I would suggest sub species of bee breeding does not preclude them being classified as different species at some point in the future.

 

[Norton]

I doubt it very much as they interbreed with ease.
The creation of the Beefalo was not at all easy and took a long time but did produce a superior animal. Now what does this remind you of in bees?

 

[The Cumbrian]

I doubt it very much as they interbreed with ease.

Natural insect hybrids do occur for example the American Lonicera fly has recently been accepted as naturally developed from hybrids of the Blue Berry Maggot Fly (Rhagoletis mendax) and the Snowberry Maggot Fly (Rhagoletis pomonella or R. zephyria)

These species have obviously bred freely enough over the last 250 years to develop a new species which has as its preferred food plant the introduced European Honeysuckle - Lonicera.

So personally I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility of differing species breeding with ease. (Still in Devil's advocate mode but finding the idea more believable the more I think about it).

 

[Norton]

Well it would be great if we could cross mellifera and cerana to get Varroa tolerant bees.
My personal view is that instead of wasting resources trying to reinvent the wheel, that breeding groups should be trying to develop VSH in their bees.

 

[The Cumbrian]

VSH? Sorry not an acronym I am familiar with.

 

[mbc]

VSH? Sorry not an acronym I am familiar with.

Varroa sensitive hygiene.
Surely, any breeding group utilising a careful ipm monitoring and treatment strategy would automatically head in the direction of vsh or varroa tolerance/resistance, to a certain extent.

 

[DanBee]

Varroa sensitive hygiene.
Surely, any breeding group utilising a careful ipm monitoring and treatment strategy would automatically head in the direction of vsh or varroa tolerance/resistance, to a certain extent.

Perhaps Norton was thinking that if you're trying to select for too many desirable characteristics at once, you lesson you chances or pace of success.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The creation of the Beefalo was not at all easy and took a long time but did produce a superior animal. Now what does this remind you of in bees?


Thats an easy one to answer Roger.....the Buckfast bee.

 

[Midland Beek]

VSH bees have become this misguided Holy Grail to crack the nut of the varroa problem, only it doesn't matter how 'hygienic' VSH bees ever become because the varroa problem is still going to be a very perceptible one requiring the appliaction of treatments.

 

[mbc]

VSH bees have become this misguided Holy Grail to crack the nut of the varroa problem, only it doesn't matter how 'hygienic' VSH bees ever become because the varroa problem is still going to be a very perceptible one requiring the appliaction of treatments.

Not necessarily, many people believe varroa is already becoming less aggressive( or the bees are coping better ) in some areas.

 

[Norton]

Maybe parallel evolution going on with aggressive Varroa killing the hosts and less aggressive ones able to survive. Susceptible bee stocks dieing out and ones better able to cope and reproducing.

 

[alanf]

Jt

Maybe parallel evolution going on with aggressive Varroa killing the hosts and less aggressive ones able to survive. Susceptible bee stocks dieing out and ones better able to cope and reproducing.

Good point. That equilibrium would be the normal disease or parasite-host balance. It becomes upset where there is a new territory or host population to exploit. There are historical examples in human populations such as the introduction of diseases from Europe into North America.

Aside from the ethics of human populations, the difficult factor in agriculturally important species is that we are actively selecting for other factors. That often leaves genetically less diverse host populations to exploit and resistance is less robust. An example often used is the way potato blight spread in the nineteenth century. The economic factors mean we cannot simply leave the populations to sort themselves out, it often needs adjustments in cultivation or husbandry as well as active treatments to maintain productivity.

 

[For want of a better word]

See attached

Bringinging this to the front as a pretty young beekeeperess I met last evening on the way down to Lamorna said she did miss this on the forum!

So my appols to all you mire sloggers up Norf who don't have such events!

 

[mbc]

"pretty young beekeeperess"

Photo's ?