AS - adjustment needed

[JonnyPicklechin]

Ive been away on business and asked another newbie (very green, only first season) to look at two of my colonies, both of which I was wary of swarm concerns (Im in London) whilst I'm on travel.

She found one of the colonies with multiple capped QCs but also found the marked queen. On the phone I tried to explain Pagden method but she was simply not happy to perform it. As I am away until Friday this week I asked my friend to find the frame with the queen and move it to a site which has an empty NUC positioned some short distance away and then add one more frame of brood and one of stores. She also has knocked down all QCs except one in the main hive.

I realise this has not separated the flying bees from the brood but by resiting the queen it has bought time.

Can i perform the move of the original colony with brood to the new site on return?

Can I simply move the NUC back to the original site, ie essentially swapping the colonies?

Should the original queen be transferred from the NUC after the colony move to the original box on the new site?



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[mjt68]

Right. This could all work out. Forget Pagden, both for this instance and in general. Your friend has started the easier (to perform and understand) nucleus method of swarm control, with no moving of hives. However from the sound of it the nuc is understrength and the hive with too many bees. Therefore there's a chance the hive could throw a cast if more than one QC is left but since we're in mid April I doubt this will happen. What to do next depends on when you think the virgin will emerge and whether you're looking to make increase or not.

The date of your last inspection and when the sealed QC were found can tell you when the virgin will emerge. Once mating flights are a possibility it's best to avoid messing around too much.

If you want to make increase and the virgin is still in her cell and you think the nuc looks weak then you could shake some bees into the nuc (NOT from the QC frame). If you don't want increase and/or the virgin might have emerged, then just reduce the nuc entrance to one beespace and leave everything alone for a few weeks. If the nuc looks good then there's nothing to do. You can then unite the nuc and hive keeping your preferred queen or build the nuc up.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I asked my friend to find the frame with the queen and move it to a site which has an empty NUC positioned some short distance away and then add one more frame of brood and one of stores.

Did you also ask her to shake in a few frames of extra bees?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

If you want to make increase and the virgin is still in her cell and you think the nuc looks weak then you could shake some bees into the nuc (NOT from the QC frame). If you don't want increase and/or the virgin might have emerged, then just reduce the nuc entrance to one beespace and leave everything alone for a few weeks. If the nuc looks good then there's nothing to do. You can then unite the nuc and hive keeping your preferred queen or build the nuc up.

Thanks for the detailed response....

The last bit has confused me a wee bit. The queen is in the NUC and the QC is in the heavily populated original hive. Why does the virgin emergence in the hive affect the NUC?

I could use the split for my friend actually. She lives 5 miles away so I could transport the NUC with the old queen....



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[JonnyPicklechin]

Did you also ask her to shake in a few frames of extra bees?

No...i can add some more on return...

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[mjt68]

Thanks for the detailed response....

The last bit has confused me a wee bit. The queen is in the NUC and the QC is in the heavily populated original hive. Why does the virgin emergence in the hive affect the NUC?

I could use the split for my friend actually. She lives 5 miles away so I could transport the NUC with the old queen....



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Because if there's a virgin in the hive you don't want to go shaking bees from there into the nuc.

 

[Hivemaker.]

No...i can add some more on return...

The reason for shaking in extra bees when making up and keeping a nuc in the same apiary is to account for the number of bees flying back to the parent colony, thus avoiding hardly any bees in the nuc and frames of chilled/dead brood.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Because if there's a virgin in the hive you don't want to go shaking bees from there into the nuc.

The penny drops. Cheers.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

The reason for shaking in extra bees when making up and keeping a nuc in the same apiary is to account for the number of bees flying back to the parent colony, thus avoiding hardly any bees in the nuc and frames of chilled/dead brood.

Got it Hm. Is shaking more bees OK after a couple o' three days? One doesnt get the same issue with "foreign bee" introduction from a shake as with a 'combine' (where one would be newspapering or airglading? What is the difference?

 

[Swarm]

Got it Hm. Is shaking more bees OK after a couple o' three days? One doesnt get the same issue with "foreign bee" introduction from a shake as with a 'combine' (where one would be newspapering or airglading? What is the difference?

Look for a frame of sealed/emerging brood if there is a remote chance that a virgin is loose.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I realise this has not separated the flying bees from the brood but by resiting the queen it has bought time.

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Butalthough you haven't reduced the number of flying bees, they now have no queen, even after the new queens emerge, they will be reluctant to swarm, if you are back before the QC your friend left has emerged, it would be advisable to go in and remove the new emergency QC's
That colony is going to be without a laying queen for quite a while, and then another three weeks before the first brood emerges, so that should sort out your population issues

Because if there's a virgin in the hive you don't want to go shaking bees from there into the nuc.

?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Butalthough you haven't reduced the number of flying bees, they now have no queen, even after the new queens emerge, they will be reluctant to swarm





?

*So the purpose of the Pagden is to seperate queen from brood AND to control (flying) bee numbers?

*A "NUC split" is generally acceptable method for swarm control, provided you keep careful eye on QCs until queen confirmed? Then back to normal swarm indicators ?

*Demaree appropriate for same reasons as NUC but when you have equipment or site imitations?

Key has to for us learners is to watch the signs of the bees' behaviour when they have decided they are reproducing and let them carry out their decision. But facilitate that wish in a controlled and measured way to suit the beekeeping environment you have in front of you...

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

*So the purpose of the Pagden is to seperate queen from brood AND to control (flying) bee numbers?

The strange dichotomy of the Pagden - flying bees are the swarm instigators, separate them from the queen and they lose the urge, however, Pagden leaves all the flying bees with the queen, but the lack of brood and comb means the bees should believe they have swarmed and are too busy comb building to think of swarming for a while

*A "NUC split" is generally acceptable method for swarm control, provided you keep careful eye on QCs until queen confirmed? Then back to normal swarm indicators ?

Ish - again, you have removed one of the ingredients for swarming - you've made the hive queenless so they have to wait for a new queen, checking regularly for extra QC's until there are no more larvae left to build QC's means there is less risk of the bees swarming with a virgin queen (This is not a cast BTW, as it is still classed as the primary swarm)
as, in the following weeks, the need for brood rearing gets less and less, more bees are available for foraging - potentially increasing yield, but at the same time workers die off reducing the population.

swarm indicators ?

*Demaree appropriate for same reasons as NUC but when you have equipment or site imitations?

Not really again - Demaree is a preemptive method, conducted before swarm cells are produced, it separates the queen from all the brood and nurse bees and leaves her and the flying bees in an empty box with plenty of work to do wax making and egg laying. It has the advantage over other methods as, instead of reducing the hive population and thus loss of foraging capacity, you are actually increasing the foraging potential as there is no brood break and the queen will step up her laying rate to repopulate the box (a reason that conducting Demarree with older queens usually results in supersedure)

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Thanks JBM. Exceptionally helpful description which has helped me understand the logic of things much more.

Do you personally utilise swarm control method(s) that work for you most of the time but are also simple to implement?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you personally utilise swarm control method(s) that work for you most of the time but are also simple to implement?

I like to use Demarree wherever possible, keeps the hive's foraging potential at it's optimum, also I can harvest Queen cells from the top box if needed to make up nucs. There's only so much kit you can carry around from apiary to apiary so as Demarree is a proactive method I can plan for when I need the kit on board, for those occasions where I find them ready to swarm I just take the queen away in a nuc - information has now emerged that this method doesn't have quite the deleterious effect on foraging capacity as was once though - in fact I now know of a few bee farmers (one an RBI) who only use the queen away method of swarm control

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

One more question sir. When is the (are the) key trigger(s) you use to elect to enact the Demarree process?

 

[citrus]

I like to use Demarree wherever possible, keeps the hive's foraging potential at it's optimum, also I can harvest Queen cells from the top box if needed to make up nucs. There's only so much kit you can carry around from apiary to apiary so as Demarree is a proactive method I can plan for when I need the kit on board, for those occasions where I find them ready to swarm I just take the queen away in a nuc - information has now emerged that this method doesn't have quite the deleterious effect on foraging capacity as was once though - in fact I now know of a few bee farmers (one an RBI) who only use the queen away method of swarm control

Hi JBM ... so reading up about Demarree .. basically you get a jump start on the swarming by doing this a bit earlier than waiting for the swarm surge... and if you are a bit late and there are queen cells (capped ?) you use the nuc method and take the queen away .. is that right ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

One more question sir. When is the (are the) key trigger(s) you use to elect to enact the Demarree process?

you do it when the colony is 'thinking about' swarming ie when it's on eight or more frames of brood (I often do it on seven), plenty of drones, flow started and loads of bees - the odd play cup starting but not queen cells Charged, with just royal jelly or eggs although you may get away with it if there are only one or two in the early stages.

Hi JBM ... so reading up about Demarree .. basically you get a jump start on the swarming by doing this a bit earlier than waiting for the swarm surge... and if you are a bit late and there are queen cells (capped ?) you use the nuc method and take the queen away .. is that right ?

yes, if either of you want an idiot's guide (Written by an accredited idiot ) just PM me your email address and I'll pass the files on

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Will take you up on that sir...cheers

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