artificial swarming

[Finman]

What is the general opinion of moving the original hive 1 1/2 metres to one side, setting up the new brood box with frames and leaving for 1/2 an hour so the flying bees leave the old hive for the new? Less bees when looking for the Queen..

Awfull operation. The queen is easy to find.
If that idea comes into mind it goes out more quickly.

 

[rae]

The new hive is new, so no smell of bees, will they move without the Queen or just become totally confused?

If you've ever dumped a hive out 200 yards away to deal with laying workers, you'll know the answer to this! By the time you reach the original site, the air is full of confused and pissed off bees who can't find their home. They can find a box, but it isn't home. If you're looking for a queen in the middle of this, it is a great opportunity to find out if you are allergic to stings!

Top tip for queen searching: do it with a friend. One on each side of the frame. It avoids the whole "queen playing hide and seek on different sides of the frame" gag....

 

[Finman]

When you make a false swarm, bees follow more odor of brood than the queen. The hive become really nervous, if there is no brood

In artificial swarm hive you need

1) foundations, --- kills the swarming fever
2) one brood frame,
3) the queen OR queen cell
4) two frame of food/or sugar feeding.

That system in old place and bees move themselves during couple of days.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Bear in mind also that the colony should be at its smallest early spring so a good time to go queen hunting

 

[RoofTops]

It is not necessary to find the queen to do an artificial swarm, although it is probably safer if you do. If you can't find the queen do this:

Put a new brood box of foundation on the old site, leave a gap of a few frames in the middle.

Then go through the old brood box and chuck/brush all the bees into the new box. When they are all in add the remaining frames plus a frame of open brood to act as a draw to keep the bees in their new home and as a trap for varroa.

Put a queen excluder on top and then the old brood box, after removing all but one queen cell - I've left two and they have swarmed as well. After a couple of hours the nurse bees will have gone up into the old box and this can then be taken away and set up close by.

Adding a queen excluder under the new brood box of foundation helps keep them in for a week.

You can remove the frame of sealed brood you left in and destroy it after the brood has been sealed. This will knock back the varroa. Alternatively, if you are not using a bait frame, you can treat them with OA syrup tstraight after the re-housing because being broodless this will be effective.

 

[tonybloke]

It is not necessary to find the queen to do an artificial swarm, although it is probably safer if you do. If you can't find the queen do this:

Put a new brood box of foundation on the old site, leave a gap of a few frames in the middle.

Then go through the old brood box and chuck/brush all the bees into the new box. When they are all in add the remaining frames plus a frame of open brood to act as a draw to keep the bees in their new home and as a trap for varroa.

Put a queen excluder on top and then the old brood box, after removing all but one queen cell - I've left two and they have swarmed as well. After a couple of hours the nurse bees will have gone up into the old box and this can then be taken away and set up close by.

Adding a queen excluder under the new brood box of foundation helps keep them in for a week.

You can remove the frame of sealed brood you left in and destroy it after the brood has been sealed. This will knock back the varroa. Alternatively, if you are not using a bait frame, you can treat them with OA syrup tstraight after the re-housing because being broodless this will be effective.

good post rooftops

 

[Rosti]

Agreed, good post RoofTops.

My point though. If you have done as roof tops has suggested then you are very, very close to having completed a full Demaree method (I think Muswell Metro mentioned it earlier). Why bother setting up the second hive (and all the moving left and right of the original site melarky)?

Demaree also has a better chance of avoiding a dip in new bee numbers and so keeps the hive more productive since still only one colony. Yes, you've guessed, my prefered option is Demaree over artificial swarm, just needs an extra brood box and an extra QE for good measure rather than a roof and floor as well, has worked well for me. Not tried raising a fresh queen from the top box yet though.

R

 

[Vergilius]

Adding a queen excluder under the new brood box of foundation helps keep them in for a week.

Doesn't this stop the virgin queen from getting out for her mating flight???

Ben P

 

[tonybloke]

Doesn't this stop the virgin queen from getting out for her mating flight???

Ben P

ben, it's the original mated queen we are referring to in the box with mostly foundation.

 

[RoofTops]

Can those who have used it successfully describe their method for Demareeing? I am not convinced the AS is the best swarm control system either although I think it is very good for making increase - finding queen cells on more than one frame allows you to make extra nucs, a method I have used quite often. Providing they are proper swarm cells and not emergency cells the resulting queens are usually good.

 

[Finman]

I am not convinced the AS is the best swarm control system either although I think it is very good for making increase -.

When queen cells allready are in the hive, artificial swarming is almost only practical method to stop swarming fever and make bees work again.

But it is disasterous on longer period because hive is splitted into brood and into forager parts.

If you want to get honey - and why not- you must join the parts for main yield.

To add hives the best system is to split big hives in late summer when yield season is almost over.

The worst time is to split hive in spring. Its brooding makes a real draw back .

.
But beekeepers nerves seldom stand to wait a good timing for hive increase.

.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Can those who have used it successfully describe their method for Demareeing? I am not convinced the AS is the best swarm control system either although I think it is very good for making increase - finding queen cells on more than one frame allows you to make extra nucs, a method I have used quite often. Providing they are proper swarm cells and not emergency cells the resulting queens are usually good.

Mine pretty much follows Dave Cushman's method via the link that I posted earlier on in this thread.

Personally, I never use the Pagden (or similar methods) and productivity is one reason.

 

[Vergilius]

ben, it's the original mated queen we are referring to in the box with mostly foundation.

Ah right!!!

Ben P

 

[oliver90owner]

WPC, at your height and build - and using deeps as brood that may be OK for you. Me, being ancient (and shorter than you) AND using 14 x 12s would make life unbearable if I did it your way. My back would just not accept the lifting!

Good job there are, as usual, options, most of which are better than doing nothing!

Removing the queen, with the minimum of bees, to a nuc might be one extreme option, if already well into a defined flow. After a week, or so, all the bees would be collecting for/storing/processing honey as there would be no more larvae to service!

Never done it but it would work for a short while to maximise the crop where the flow will diminish to a low level after a couple of weeks?

It seems to me that if there is lots of space for both brooding and storage, the bees will try to fill it rather than swarm early. Hence P H and his 4 supers per hive is a good swarm control on it's own!

Regards, RAB

 

[Rosti]

As per Roof Tops request, abridged version of 'Demaree a la Rosti'

Have only done this 3 times in 2 years so hardly exhaustive evaluation. Once because I wanted to move from Std BB to 14x12 (so I took the chance to practice rather than just let them move up) and twice as a result of seeing QC's populated with larvae, never done it proactively anticipating active QCs (no crystal ball). All colonies were strong at the time.

DAY 0

• Set up second brood box with as many drawn frames poss and plain foundation for the rest - 11 total (have unavoidably done it with all foundation on one occassion - it still worked)
• Place stocked BB 'B' next to hive ideally on a spare floor or on the removed roof
• Remove centre frame
• Work though BB 'A' find frame with Q on it and transfer to BB 'B'
• Once over the BB 'B' inspect for QC's and remove all
• Cover with a manipulation cloth
• Remove BB 'A' from it's location and replace with BB 'B'
• QE then any supers that were already there, an extra one if the last is already being worked.
• AN EXTRA SUPER BUT WITH NO FRAMES IN
• QE
• Now place BB 'A' on top QE
• Inspect and remove any QC's (unless you are going to breed a new queen)
• Shove the frames together and place the removed frame from BB 'B' at one end.
• Crown, Space board foam insulation block above, then roof

DAY 7

• If not wanting a new queen inspect BB 'A' and remove any QC's
• I guess you get to choose at this point if breeding - but I have always done this when QCs present in first place so you would have your chosen QC anyway.
• Do not inspect BB 'B'

DAY 14 & 21

• Inspect BB 'A' for remaining brood
• Inspect BB 'B' for progress
• @ D21 decide when to remove BB 'A'

Can run BB 'A' as a second hive and allow chosen QC to develop, use a second 'entrance' to allow mating, then replace original queen or what ever (I have not done this yet though). Some books have said to have a second entrance to let drones out but I have just relied on my weekly inspection to let them out.

 

[Black Comb]

Good post Rosti.
A Horsley board is another option.

 

[Finman]

[*]Crown, Space board foam insulation block above, then roof
[.

Crowns, bottoms and roof ceased last week, what now!!

Last July I visited in Honey paradise company to bye Langstroth boxes. Some Russian beek had bought every single box from company. Sold out.

 

[drstitson]

"Last July I visited in Honey paradise company to bye Langstroth boxes. Some Russian beek had bought every single box from company. Sold out."

are you sure it was a Russian and not Rooftops????!!!!

 

[Finman]

Are you sure it was a Russian and not Rooftops????!!!!

perhaps...business secret, shhhh

 

[aberreef]

Just as a thought, could you hold back any full supers from the AS colony and give empty supers (with undrawn foundation) then feed until all the brrod combs are drawn and her Mag is settled and laying well with plenty if nectar coming in.

Would this make any unsealed nectar ferment or leak everywhere?