Artificial swarm without identifying queen - best method?

[ksjs]

I'm struggling to get definitive / consistent advice on this. Basically I want to make increase this year, this is more of a priority than honey. I believe the sooner I do this the better (assuming of course bees are strong enough). I also want to avoid swarming.

All the advice seems to be wait until they have swarm cells but they may not swarm as queen in her first year. Naively perhaps I am not bothered about them having to make a queen from an emergency cell, if nothing it will be a learning experience.

The bees are covering all 11 frames and there's brood on 8. They're on a brood and a half at the moment (the half only went in last week so no idea how this is progressing yet).

I haven't been able to spot the queen in 5 inspections so have to proceed without knowing where she is. This is my plan:

1. Split frames equally between existing hive and new hive ensuring brood at all stages in both, add foundation to fill boxes and feed.
2. Site new hive along existing hive.
3. Inspect 3 days later and there should be an emergency cell(s) in one of the hives, ensure this hive is on the original site, move hive without emergency cell(s) to location I want it to stay.
4. Flying bees will return to original hive and I will have 2 hives as follows:

ORIGINAL SITE: 4 frames brood, 2 frames stores, 5 frames foundation, emergency cells, some nurse bees and most of the flying bees.

NEW SITE: 4 frames brood, 2 frames stores, 5 frames foundation, queen, nurse bees and few flying bees.

I think this should (might!) work, only thing I am unsure about is the physical location of the hives at the different stages and whether this is viable i.e. can I site the 2 hives side by side for 3 days and then move the 'new' hive with 'original queen away (yet within a few metres)? And another classic, should I cull emergency cells to leave 1 or 2 or do they simply not make multiple emergency cells i.e. there'll only be one?

So, does what I'm suggesting make sense, is it likely to work? Is it sufficient to significantly decrease likelihood of swarming?

Would this be a split, an artificial swarm or a combination of the 2?

 

[oliver90owner]

If you are insisting on them building emergency cells, at least leave that colony as strong as possible. Splitting about half and half will not achieve that.

I would suggest shifting queen and a couple frames to a nuc, dummy down the old box on the original site and go from there.

Yes, by all means even up the colonies when the cells are drawn and select the best two on separate frames and then split that part into two (or even three) just before the queens are about to emerge. Increase from one to three or four in less than two weeks. If one of them fails you can still re-unite the remains. These splits would be far better in nucs (poly, as well) but should be no real problem if you set about it sensibly.

Problems later may include getting queens mated, early supercedure of emergency queens, wasps, etc. Oh, and temerament of the next generation.

Certainly not an A/S, is it?

Four nuc sized colonies will obviously reduce the risk of swarming, particularly with three young queens. The old one may swarm later in the season, but should not be doing so at this time! Having said that the risk of one swarm from four colonies is possibly higher than one swarm from a single colony. Just think of simple numbers!

It is up to the beekeeper to avoid swarms.

RAB

 

[Easy Beesy]

Can I ask, why you in such a rush to force your bees into increase? Why not work with them instead?
Eb

 

[george]

If you are keen to increase numbers by splitting , giving them more room in the form of a super to make a brood and half wont help . Keeping them in a smaller space with nectar coming in and an increasing population will bring on the swarming impulse . They will simply run out of room .
This way you get proper swarm cells created from larvae of the optimum age .

Your main problem with whichever way you decide to go is finding the queen . It comes with practice and if you can get her marked so much the better .

If you decide to do a half and half split , there are no guarantees that the bees in the queenless half wont fly back to the main hive where the queen is . Generally bees wont abandon brood but it can happen . I would move one half the required 3 miles , check them in a few days then leave one good open cell with grub inside . Emergency queens can vary in quality , i have had some truly brilliant queens from emergency cells , and also some scrawny useless things that spend more time above the excluder than below it .

Can you not get a 2nd colony from elsewhere ? Swarm from local assoc perhaps .

g

 

[ksjs]

I would suggest shifting queen and a couple frames to a nuc, dummy down the old box on the original site and go from there.

Thanks for post. As I said though, can't spot the queen Also, surely a half and half split is strong i.e. a nuc might only be 2-3 frames of bees, this would already be more. I assume however not having a laying queen may make a huge difference in this respect?

 

[ksjs]

Can I ask, why you in such a rush to force your bees into increase? Why not work with them instead?
Eb

They may not swarm (queen in her first year, all colonies don't swarm and I'm giving them lots of space).

So, I have a choice: leave it and see or take the view that I want to increase so better to do it now even if it is slightly forced. It's a good learning opportunity too.

 

[ksjs]

If you decide to do a half and half split , there are no guarantees that the bees in the queenless half wont fly back to the main hive where the queen is .

Can you not get a 2nd colony from elsewhere ? Swarm from local assoc perhaps .

Cheers. Everything I've read doesn't (iirc) mention bees (except flying ones) returning to parent colony. Prefer to use this (the need to get more viable hives to go into winter with) as a means of trialling a split to see how this works.

There seem to be few guarantees and endless contradictions in beekeeping so I'm happy that I'm not doing anything THAT wrong.

 

[drex]

Go for it ksjs.

At least as you say you will hopefully learn from it.
The only suggestion I can make is to ensure your colony is as strong as possible ( and it is still early for this) before you split, and possibly dummy down the new colony, adding foundation as they draw it.

I am sure you will make it work. You are obviously thinking things through and keen to learn from exoerience.

 

[Bob Bee]

I'm going to advise you not to do this. I think you risk losses rather than increase. If you read Paul Mann "How to Keep bees without finding the queen" , he gives some good advise for those with only one colony and for those with more.
I know "shook swarm" is frowned upon by many on the forum (me included) but for someone in your position I would say it is the most effective method you have , to be fairly sure of success.
There's plenty of descriptions of shook swarming on the web. choose a fine day and make sure you have all the kit handy.

 

[oliver90owner]

As I said though, can't spot the queen Also, surely a half and half split is strong i.e. a nuc might only be 2-3 frames of bees,

I did note the problem of finding her . Wiould have to try harder,? Enlist help? There are other ways.

I don't think many new beeks actually realise what a really strong colony is, and likely not even a strong one.

RAB

 

[ksjs]

I'm going to advise you not to do this. I think you risk losses rather than increase. If you read Paul Mann "How to Keep bees without finding the queen" , he gives some good advise for those with only one colony and for those with more.
I know "shook swarm" is frowned upon by many on the forum (me included) but for someone in your position I would say it is the most effective method you have , to be fairly sure of success.
There's plenty of descriptions of shook swarming on the web. choose a fine day and make sure you have all the kit handy.

Not sure why I hadn't thought of this, maybe because it's more of a disease control method? Sounds interesting though. But what happens to the brood left behind i.e. if I shake all bees into new colony there'll be no nurse bees to tend the larvae etc?

 

[Bob Bee]

Not sure why I hadn't thought of this, maybe because it's more of a disease control method? Sounds interesting though. But what happens to the brood left behind i.e. if I shake all bees into new colony there'll be no nurse bees to tend the larvae etc?

Read the instructions carefully.Then read them again. After 24 hours of shaking, In one box you will have the queen, flying bees and a few nurse bees in the other you will have the brood, the nurse bees and probably stores and pollen. Then you separate. The flying bees in the box with the brood will mostly return to the original site.

Feed the box on the original site to help them draw new comb and both colonies will be plenty busy doing what they need to do. If in doubt buy the book or print off the web somewhere.

 

[Poly Hive]

Taranov swarm them.

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/taranovswm.html

Not though if they are near people pets etc as it can get "interesting"

PH

 

[ksjs]

Read the instructions carefully.Then read them again. After 24 hours of shaking, In one box you will have the queen, flying bees and a few nurse bees in the other you will have the brood, the nurse bees and probably stores and pollen. Then you separate. The flying bees in the box with the brood will mostly return to the original site.

I'm confused: how can there be ANY bees left in the original BB, you shake the entire contents into the new BB on the original site therefore nothing left in original box (in new location too so no instinct for any bees to return there) so nobody to tend larvae. Or am I missing something?

I used the Fera factsheet 16 for reference on how to do a shook swarm:
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=167

 

[Poly Hive]

NO you are not missing anything at all.

All the bees are transferred and the existing brood destroyed or donated.

Further you are supposed to find the queen.

Not quite what you want me thinks.

PH

 

[ksjs]

As I said though, can't spot the queen Also, surely a half and half split is strong i.e. a nuc might only be 2-3 frames of bees,

I did note the problem of finding her . Wiould have to try harder,? Enlist help? There are other ways.

I don't think many new beeks actually realise what a really strong colony is, and likely not even a strong one.

RAB

I would try harder but the maxims of not needing to see the queen, trying to keep things simple and disturbing bees as little as possible take precedent when there are viable options for managing situation with a discrete queen.

As to colony strength, like I said, nucs on 2-3 frames are the norm. It seems reasonable to assume that a nuc of 4-5 frames would be even better?

 

[Torq]

Can't find the queen, how about a shook swarm under a Horsley board?

 

[Poly Hive]

A decent nuc has brood on four frames.

Can I suggest as you are not AS'ing at all but attempting to make increase you do your split as you suggest then buy in a mated queen and intro her to the half of the split that shows signs of making queen cells.

Nice and simple and no need to find this elusive queen.

PH

 

[Bob Bee]

I'm confused: how can there be ANY bees left in the original BB, you shake the entire contents into the new BB on the original site therefore nothing left in original box (in new location too so no instinct for any bees to return there) so nobody to tend larvae. Or am I missing something?

I used the Fera factsheet 16 for reference on how to do a shook swarm:
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=167

what your describing is different to Paul Mann.

Remove roof and crownboard, smoke the bees replace crown board and wait 15 mins.

Remove crown board and knock any bees into the brood box

Move the brood chamber and floor to one side or onto the upturned roof

Put a new floor QE and BB on original site.Fill the BB with foundation. Temporarily place an empty super on this and brush or shake the bees onto the new frames (make sure you brush all the bees from the box and old floor etc as the queen might be there).

When all the bees are on the top of the new box, drive them down with a little smoke and place another queen excluder on top.
Place the BB with all the old combs of brood etc on top of this excluder and close up leaving for 24 hours.

Come back and move the old BB with combs brood and nurse bees to a new floor on a new site a few (5-10 ft) feet away.

Feed the original site constantly while they draw the foundation and the new site after a few days and then check to see if a new queen is laying from a week or so.


That's the gist of it but get the book for fine tuning.
Remove the bottom QE once the queen is laying in the new comb.
Once there is a laying queen on the new site you have two colonies.
What could possibly go wrong.

 

[Bob Bee]

what your describing is different to Paul Mann.

Remove roof and crownboard, smoke the bees replace crown board and wait 15 mins.

Remove crown board and knock any bees into the brood box

Move the brood chamber and floor to one side or onto the upturned roof

Put a new floor QE and BB on original site.Fill the BB with foundation. Temporarily place an empty super on this and brush or shake the bees onto the new frames (make sure you brush all the bees from the box and old floor etc as the queen might be there).

When all the bees are on the top of the new box, drive them down with a little smoke and place another queen excluder on top.
Place the BB with all the old combs of brood etc on top of this excluder and close up leaving for 24 hours.

Come back and move the old BB with combs brood and nurse bees to a new floor on a new site a few (5-10 ft) feet away.

Feed the original site constantly while they draw the foundation and the new site after a few days and then check to see if a new queen is laying from a week or so.


That's the gist of it but get the book for fine tuning.
Remove the bottom QE once the queen is laying in the new comb.
Once there is a laying queen on the new site you have two colonies.
What could possibly go wrong.

With a couple of variations this is pretty much all I did for my first two years beekeeping, though that was 30 years ago, PM's version is a bit of an update. But I can assure you it works.