Artificial Swarm Problem

[Fennel]

My number one hive is full of brood, bees, stores, pollen. Put a super on at beginning of May, bees began storing in it. Lots of willow, cherry tree, flowering cherries (single flower), dandelions, now apple blossom and Horse Chestnut.

ADDENDUM (at the beginning!!) My question is at the end if you want to skip all the guff below and get to the point.

1. Noted a few Queen Cells (QC) in the making, and queen cups.
3. Moved a full frame of sealed brood to another hive that was struggling with few bees but adequate stores. Probably a little bit unorthodox but a little experiment of my own devising.
2. Destroyed cells and cups - 8th May - put second super on (underneath first super so new super closest to brood box) with intention of returning within week to do Artificial Swarm (AS).
3. Unable to return but managed to go yesterday 22nd May (14 days after first visit).

Began AS -

1. Moved parent hive out (Old hive -OL) and New Hive (NH) into its position.
2. Supers taken off OL etc.
4. Began check of OL. Still lots of bees all working hard. Sealed brood, larvae, eggs, drone brood, Queen Cells and cups seen.
5. At least one QC had a larva in it.
6. No sealed QC’s seen.
7 Spent about 45 minutes searching for Queen (Q). Unfortunately destroying QC's as I went. But reserving the one chosen because of its beauty, size, and position (face of comb)! Unfortunately because prize reserved queen cell was slightly squashed when searching for the Q for the umpteenth time.
8. Just could not find Q. Tried keeping frames in pairs. Must have gone through the hive 4 or 5 times. If not more. I spent an inordinate amount of time staring at frames, focussing eyes, de-focussing eyes, looking for - unusual movement, bees paying unusual attention to a particular bee, a slim lady in red stockings “waltzing” around the frames. Still no Q seen.
9. Abandoned hope of doing AS. Heaved OH hive back to original position. Left NH close by as bait hive waste of time but oh well, who knows.
10. I have never seen the Q in this hive (she is from last year) she is very fecund and the hive came through the winter well. Produces honey, even last year. I have not seen a single varroa mite on the board this year! I have had the board in almost continuously for the last 4 weeks, because I did not believe there were no varroa. I check the boards thoroughly. Last year, though, this colony was VERY aggressive (40 plus stings in beesuit, plus one or two in me, at every visit. The intention was to dispose of her and replace with a queen from a more placid colony
Carried out AS procedure last year had same problem (could not find Q) went back after about a week and found Q.

Maybe I have 'regiopia' (similar to myopia?)!

My questions are: - As I could not find Q
1. What do I do now?
2. When? How soon should I try searching for Q again if AS is the only solution.
3. Is there another procedure that does not require the old Q to be found?
Thank you in anticipation.
Tom

 

[Fennel]

Went Back to the hive yesterday (Tues. 28th May) to try to complete AS as I could not find the queen last time. This was 6 days ago (Wed 22nd May).

I again spent 40 mins (probably longer) looking for the queen but again I could not find her.

What I did find was numerous queen cups and unseealed QC's.

AND I found three sealed QCells, fine looking ones on the face of the comb.

I did see sealed brood, lavae and EGGS. I took this (eggs) to mean the queen was probably still there still there and there were still many bees. There are so many Qcups and Qcells in this hive right now. I left all the cells anbd cups intact.

I checked the supers for the Queen in case the excluder had some fault I had not noticed, she was not there but there were queen cups on one of the frames (no egg, not charged).

How soon after sealing QC do they swarm? Will they swarm today?

Shall I just let them swarm or disrupt them again and look for the queen again?

 

[Bob Bee]

If your certain that the queen is still there but you just cant find her you could do a shook swarm, which has the same effect but doesnt require you to find the queen.
with sealed queen cells they have probably already swarmed but if there are new eggs you may be in time.

 

[Fennel]

Hi Bob, Do I just shake the bees into a new brood box?

Do I leave new box in situ at old hive site?

Do I end up keeping all bees across two hives? Who (which bees) will look after all the brood on the old hive?

 

[enrico]

Ok.... I think you can't find the queen because she has gone. You have three sealed queen cells. This is what I would do, I would check for eggs, no eggs just about confirms my suspicions . I would set up a nuc box with a sealed queen cell a frame of stores and a couple of frames of brood, I would set this to one side. The flyers will return to the old hive. This would be my insurance hive, if all else fails with the new hive I have a queen in the nuc who should emerge and be mated. The old hive I would destroy all but one charged queen cell, not capped, and replace the frames I removed with foundation. If the queen has NOT gone then they may swarm but ...... You have your insurance hive.
If she has already gone or is in the process of being replaced then the queen cell you have left will be capped and should emerge and again be mated. You may then have a choice of two queens to recombine, or you may decide to build the nuc up to a full hive. I would suggest that you look at demaree methods of swarm control for next year, for some unknown reason I think that they may suit you!
Hope this helps, it is merely what I would do in your position.
Others may disagree!
E

 

[oliver90owner]

The shook swarm is not. Basically in future, if you have time, shake all the bees into a bottom box with a couple frames of brood (and not too much of anything else), cover with an excluder and replace the old brood box. One day later the nurse bees will be upstairs tending most of the brood and the queen should be located between the frames of brood in the bottom box, especially if you let in the light and wait a few minutes..., but don't not smoke them or she may be hiding elsewhere.

As Enrico says, this time you likely are chasing a non-existent queen.

RAB

 

[Fennel]

Thanks chaps. Reading and digesting advice now. Still lots and lots of bees in hive yesterday and eggs, little lavae and sealed brood.

It is raining today, up here in the East Riding. Will this stop them flying off today, either a swarm or cast?

Reading Welsh Govt. page advice!

wbka.com pdf a012queencells.pdf Not allowed to post links yet!

All very useful. Have also read other threads, on here which I know I should have done first, apologies. Still do not know what I am going to do yet. Thank you again.

 

[Arfermo]

Agree with Oliver90 owner. "Shook swarm" is quick and simple but likely means the loss of all brood if used for comb changing. Another method of tracking queen is the Taranov Swarming Box (see Dave Cushmans site) ie throw the bees out and let them walk back in. The queen will be visible doing the walk too. Even with traditional shook swarm, best to find queen first in case throwing bees into another box damages her.

 

[Outlander]

Last week I shook them all on to a QX last two frames shook them and there she was. Capped QC, only the weather stopped her from going. Her yellow mark had worn off and she had slimmed up. Messed up on the AS so did not stop that swarm instinct so have to do it all over again tomorrow

Did have a spot of luck though this week. Found the queen in my first hive for the first time since she superceded her mother. Had never seen this lady until now.